SPEAKERS

Christian Klepp, Darshan Mehta

Christian Klepp  00:00

Welcome to B2B Marketers on a Mission, a podcast for B2B marketers that helps you to question the conventional, think differently, disrupt your industry, and take your marketing to new heights. Each week, we talk to B2B marketing experts who share inspirational stories, discuss our thoughts and trending topics, and provide useful marketing tips and recommendations. And now, here’s your host and co-founder of EINBLICK Consulting, Christian Klepp. Okay, welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast where you get your weekly dose of B2B marketing insights. This is your host Christian Klepp. And today I am joined by someone who is on a mission to empower marketers to gain actionable insights when conducting market research. So it’s all about getting to that aha moment. So coming to us from Bangkok, Thailand, Mr. Darshan Mehta, let me see if I can get this right. Sawatdee Ka. Welcome to the show.

Darshan Mehta  00:53

Sawatdee Ka. Great to be here. Christian, thank you very much.

Christian Klepp  00:59

Really looking forward to this conversation. Darshan. So let’s, let’s dive right in. Sure. Okay. So you know, you’re no stranger to market research, right. In fact, you authored a book on the subject, and it was called, you know, back to what I was saying earlier, getting to Aha. So why today’s insights are tomorrow’s facts? So this is something that’s extremely important for B2B organizations that actually have taken the initiative to invest the market research. So talk to us about the nature of insights and what they are?

Darshan Mehta  01:26

Sure, first of all, let’s talk about the definition of insights. I think that’s often a term that’s used loosely and differently by different people. I would say the Insight is do not stop at just facts and observations. It’s much deeper. It’s also taking into consideration sociological trends, cultural impacts, as well as technological. And I’d say probably the best example I can give you of what an insight is, when we are listening to a really good comedian. And they basically take observations and things. And they articulate in a way that makes you say, Oh, my God, I never thought of it that way. But that’s so true. And that’s the other part of an insight, you’re actually trying to get to a core truth and underlying trigger motivator, that’s a core truth and you kind of know it. As soon as you see it, I just makes total sense. Because ultimately, what you’re trying to do with an insight is you’re trying to tap into the subconscious of human behavior. Because 95% of choices that we make, are actually driven by our subconscious. And what happens is that these are some of these thoughts that we think them we feel them, but it’s rare that it’s been articulated into a thought, That’s concise. And we understand. So that’s why I’m a big proponent of conversations to tap into these insights, so that you actually can get at a core truth.

Christian Klepp  02:50

Yeah, no, that’s absolutely right. And, you know, at the end of the day, you need to get to these insights, so that you can actually act upon what you find on the research, right? Because you know, it’s at the end of the day, it’s that classic question, what’s the research telling you? What’s the data telling you? How can you act upon that? How can you use that? How can that influence decision making? How can that influence you to go down the right path?

Darshan Mehta  03:15

Absolutely, it actually gives you direction. And also, you know, most businesses, what they’re looking for, is a way to innovate, to differentiate, and to build loyalty. And this is, even after years of doing this for a while, I’ve learned that if you can gain insight, it’s one of the best, easiest way to actually innovate. And it’s also a way to differentiate.

Christian Klepp  03:40

Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, like, on to the next question, which is kind of linked to what you’re seeing right now is like, how do you best… And I know there’s many ways how do you best uncover insights when you’re conducting market research?

Darshan Mehta  03:53

There’s a couple of things I would say here, one, let’s just take a step back and say, What is market research? I think sometimes people think it’s Ivory Tower, or expensive, complicated. It really doesn’t have to be. It’s as simple as basically structured curiosity. And so one of the things I think it’s also a challenge for, especially for business owners and entrepreneurs, is to step out of your shoes as being an expert, and actually listen to what customers are saying. It’s not important what the facts are, what’s more important is what their perceptions are. And that’s what you want to tap into. So you want to first of all, change your mindset from being an expert or salesperson, to actually listening and being more curious, and also having more empathy. Having said that, there’s many ways to pursue this, especially nowadays with digital, obviously, you’re gonna get insights no matter what, because people are having conversations and giving you reviews and talking to each other about your product or brand. So that’s one way. The other way is basically through traditional methods of research. One is qualitative, such as focus groups or interviews and the other is surveys. And I’m a proponent of both. I think, however you should use them both simultaneously, and recognize the strengths and weaknesses of each. For example, I would advocate doing focus groups first having conversations, because that’s what’s going to allow you to get deeper and get into why. And once you have some clarity on, you know, trying some different hypotheses and seeing how people will react, you will end up with a better survey, you’ll have better questions. And you’ll also have better answer choices that are more relevant to the questions. And the combination of the two should give you a much deeper, better picture, but also that it’s also quantifiable.

Christian Klepp  05:40

Yeah, absolutely. I love what you said earlier, structured curiosity. I mean, I couldn’t have put it better myself, almost, you can almost liken it to, you know, if you watch shows like CSI, and what have you. It’s like the forensic scientists, right, or the forensics experts. They’re trying to conduct not necessarily autopsy but it’s, it’s that it’s an investigative nature, right? Like you’re trying to, like, diagnose the situation, like why this happened? What are the causes? How do you, how do you get to an outcome, you know, something to that effect?

Darshan Mehta  06:11

You can’t use you just have a direct line, you can just ask people, why does this happen? Right? And in fact, many times people won’t even give you a solution. Sure. There’s often a quote by Henry Ford that’s used with focus groups. And that is that he supposedly asked if I’d ask people what they wanted, they would have said, a faster horse.

Christian Klepp  06:29

Faster horse. Yeah.

Darshan Mehta  06:31

But the thing is, first of all, I’m not even there’s never been any proof that he actually said that.

Christian Klepp  06:35

Sure.

Darshan Mehta  06:36

But in all honesty, most people would have said faster horse, right, it’s a good quote, I think most likely what people would have said they would like to have something faster, maybe easier. And so people will absolutely tell you their pain points. They’ll tell you their frustrations, they’ll tell you the things that bother them aggravate them, they may not give you the solution. They don’t know that because that’s where you come in as the business person in your industry or in your category. And that’s where you’re listening to what their pain points are. And you say, you know, I think I know how you can solve this. And that’s where the opportunities for innovation and differentiation occur.

Christian Klepp  07:13

Yeah, no, that’s  absolutely right. And that was a great segue to the next question about leveraging insights, you know, for innovation and the audience engagement. So can you talk to us a little bit more about that?

Darshan Mehta  07:26

Absolutely. You know, that’s one of the things you’re always looking for is to innovate. And, often, the best ways to do that is to talk to people who use your product, including those that are dissatisfied. In fact, I would say often, the kernels of innovation are the ones that are dissatisfied, because they often end up being what I call like, super fans, and they’re just a little bit more picky, more demanding. And as a result, they may complain. And in fact, I would say it’s a compliment when they complain, because they took the time to actually tell you because they think maybe you can improve or do better. And that’s where the opportunities lie, to innovate. And if you can become your biggest competitor, and out innovate yourself, that’s the one thing you can control. You can’t control competitors, and what they do and what they don’t do, but you can control what you do. And I think you’re often better off cannibalizing your own product or brand than having someone else do it.

Christian Klepp  08:27

You brought up a really great point there. And I’d like to go back to it, it’s that having that conversation with clients or prospects that may not have necessarily been happy or satisfied with your product or service, or in fact, even lost prospects. You rightfully pointed out the importance of talking to them, but why do you think a lot of companies avoid having those conversations? Because it makes them uncomfortable? There’s a lot of like sensitivity around that area? Or like, what are your thoughts on that?

Darshan Mehta  08:59

Great question. It’s something I’ve asked many times, I’m not sure to be honest with you. I’ve often wondered, you know, a lot of the companies that are led by people that are also consumers in their own life, as in a professional manner, people who buy business services, but also consumer product, but something happens when they come to work. And I have to say, I think part of it is that there’s just a real focus on metrics, as opposed to really getting at what people think and feel. There might be also the perception, I think that it’s a little bit difficult to do. But it’s actually not that difficult. And you can have conversations in many different ways. The main thing is to have them and have them on a regular basis. And I think you’ll find that that’s one of the greatest sources for insights, innovation, and differentiation.

Christian Klepp  09:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Do you also think it’s partly because people just don’t want to change the status quo? Because that’s, that’s probably what’s gonna happen if you have conversations with people that weren’t either lost prospects or people, they weren’t happy with your product or service.

Darshan Mehta  10:02

I think that’s a little bit of a truth there. I mean, I think that’s a little bit true with human nature. Like we don’t like change for the most part, it’s, you know, in our comfort zone Exactly. However, you know, the truth is in business, there’s constant change. I mean, that’s the one thing that’s constant is there’s going to be change. And your choice isn’t whether there’s going to be changed or not your choices, do you want to be a part of that change, or even drive the change? Just like having, you know, people having conversations about your brand or service? You know, you have a choice. Can you be part of that conversation? Of course. But that doesn’t mean the conversation is not going on and existing, especially with digital channels. Now, people they write reviews tell each other, so the conversation is going to happen with or without you. And you have the opportunity to listen, sooner or later, is not whether you’re going to listen or not, I mean, one way or another, you’re gonna get an insight, right? If you basically don’t talk to customers, you spent a lot of time and a lot of money and launch a product, you will find whether it’s going to work or not. And that will be an insight, right? But you can also maybe do that in advance, where you can do some test balloon some trials, get feedback, and maybe make some iterations so that you know, when you really put your efforts of money and time behind a real campaign, your odds of being successful have been optimized because you’ve gotten feedback, and tweaked it to what you know, is the marketplace is going to react positively to.

Christian Klepp  11:31

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Hey you just made me think of another question, though, that you mentioned that, um, yeah, they call it dark social now. Right. But like, you know, these conversations that are happening in channels are in places that you can’t necessarily either measure, and you have little control over. What are your thoughts on that? How, how much, how much emphasis should marketers or people that are conducting market research place on channels in dark social?

Darshan Mehta  12:00

I think you should always listen to the feedback one way or the other, I don’t think you need to overemphasize one or the other. Obviously, there’s sometimes you know, people are just going to be critical. But more than anything, instead of reacting to the criticism, try to understand what’s actually driving this. And if you can actually respond to the negative or whatever feedback, it’s better to be part of that conversation. If you can, then not. And oftentimes, people are not upset that something goes wrong, they’re more actually going to react to the way you respond than the fact that something went wrong. So I would encourage people to use all the possible ways they can to listen and interact. But I would also encourage, you know, doing your own active conversations with customers to so that you have something that can reach your objectives. And it really answers some questions that you’re having that are maybe not being answered and reviews or recommendations.

Christian Klepp  12:59

That’s absolutely right. That’s absolutely right.

 You talked about some of them already in the past couple of minutes, but some mistakes and misconceptions that people have, when it comes to generating insights from market research, and what needs to be done to address these.

Darshan Mehta  13:42

One thing I’ve seen over the years, oftentimes, people want to get into why. But they often gravitates towards doing surveys. And I think part of the reason is, one, most people are familiar with surveys, they’ve either taken one, and they feel somewhat confident they can write them. And oftentimes in the past, it’s been less expensive than doing qualitative research. So even though they want to get at the why, they end up going down the avenue of doing actually quantitative. And I often find that people are often disappointed with results, because they still can’t get at the why. That’s partly why I’m launching this iResearch platform. So you can allow to do on demand, focus groups, anytime, anywhere, in any language, and to really bring the cost down so that it’s on par with, you know, more affordable research for medium to small sized companies, where it’s traditionally doing qualitative has always been for larger corporations that have bigger budgets. But that doesn’t mean the conversations can’t be had or done.

Christian Klepp  14:40

Yeah, no, that’s absolutely right. It’s definitely much harder and definitely harder to track, right? You know, if you’re looking at it from an attribution perspective, if you’re conducting, like in depth customer research, because it’s all qualitative, right, that’s based on somebody’s personal opinion and feedback. Whereas if you’re, if you’ve got a survey, well, you can come up with all these graphs and charts and, you know, drop all the numbers in a report right.

Darshan Mehta  15:05

Well, I think I think both are good. I think there’s real value to in depth interviews. There’s also a value to having group discussions. What I like about the group discussion, it’s something allows you to be more focused on a topic but with a group of people. And what I like about that is that everyone kind of feeds off of each other. Similar to let’s say, you go to a cocktail party, right, and you’re with maybe five or six people, and you start talking about a topic, but everybody’s listening to each other and feeding off each other, and doing a deeper dive, whether they realize it or not, because you’re saying, Oh, that was really interesting Christian. I never thought of that. But let me tell you what I’m thinking now that you made me think of that. And so as a result of that you’re going deeper and deeper. And that’s where I think, you know, having a group discussion is also very valuable. But again, like I said, I think each methodology has its inherent pros and cons. You just need to recognize what they are, you need to understand your objectives, and what it is you’re really trying to answer. And then I think you can maximize each methodology to help you get there in terms of time budget and your objectives.

Christian Klepp  16:09

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Speaking of speaking of objectives, you know, this is table stakes for like people like yourself, who have done this professionally for many years. But talk to us about the importance of actually having you can call it a game plan, or a strategy, like what’s the importance of having a strategy when you’re trying to generate insights from market research?

Darshan Mehta  16:33

I think often people try to do too much. And I often tell clients, I’m sure you have lots of questions to answer. But I want you to answer one question. And that is, if you could only ask one question, if you only give the answer to one question, first of all, what would that be? And who would you like to ask that question to? And that gets people to really focus. That doesn’t mean you can’t go beyond that and have some more questions. But you really need to understand what’s the objective of this particular effort or this research that you’re engaging in. And I think the more focus you are, the better the results and the insights will be. And this is one of the other thing about research is not something that you just do once and never do it. Again, it’s something that should be done on a regular basis, and in different ways, and have different objectives. And that will give you a more robust picture of the whole situation.

Christian Klepp  17:26

Yeah no, exactly. And speaking of which, doing research on a regular basis. How often should companies conduct research? And or? That’s question one. And Question two is like, what’s the minimum in terms of the timeframe?

Darshan Mehta  17:41

Well, there’s so many ways to get feedback. Now. There’s no one answer. I think that fits all, or all types of companies. I think that really depends on your objectives. Are you looking to innovate? Are you looking to build loyalty? Are you looking to test communication? So there’s many different objectives that you can use various research methodologies for, but I think the key is to do it on a regular basis and use multiple methods. One, obviously, like I said, you’re gonna get information from reviews and recommendations that occur automatically. You also get feedback from people who call you with issues in terms of customer service, or customer success stories, things like that. So there’s many different ways to get input. The key is to organize it, and maybe have someone who’s kind of a point person to look at all of it and try to synthesize it, but there’s still there’s still going to be questions and open areas that don’t that’s where you need say, we need to conduct our direct research to answer these questions that we’re not getting from any other sources.

Christian Klepp  18:41

Okay, well, that’s fair enough. But what would you say about like conducting research only once a year is too little? Probably right?

Darshan Mehta  18:48

Well, it depends on if you just go out and listen to customer feedback once a year. Yeah, I mean, but nowadays, there’s going to be feedback on a regular basis. And I think, you know, if methodology costs come down, then I think it makes sense to them on a regular basis. I mean, it’s kind of like the question that will turn around the other way. How often do you want to innovate? How often do you want to work on building loyalty? How often do you want to build on, you know, testing your messaging to see if it’s really resonating? Right? It’s, you have to ask yourself those questions, you know, how many campaigns are you doing per year? And do you want to make sure that those campaigns are going to be successful when you launch them? And they’re resonating in terms of the messaging? Or do you want to just stab in the dark and find out if it works or not?

Christian Klepp  19:31

That’s a fair point. That’s a fair point. It’s almost as if like, if you were a proactive, forward thinking organization, you’d always you’d almost have to do market research at every opportunity you can get to make sure that you know, what you’re doing is working, it’s in line with you know, what the market wants or getting market validation. So that’s where that whole, you know, conducting market research on a regular basis might come in.

Darshan Mehta  19:58

If you think about running a business is really managing and minimizing risks, right? Because you’re making lots of decisions. And you basically have two choices in making those decisions. One, you can just guess, right? Based on some information, or you can actually get feedback from your customers. And to me, it seems a little bit easier to actually get the feedback from the customers as opposed to totally stabbing in the dark, because then you can make a much more informed decision and are you going to be guaranteed success? no, because there’s lots of variables that you know, drive that in terms of your mindset to actually make sure you’re listening versus selling, and being open to, you know, maybe recognizing that the path you’re initially wanting to go down, may not have been the right one. But now that you’re listening and hearing, it’s something that might be a better variation of that, or a better iteration and focus in a direction to go in.

Christian Klepp  20:54

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the just guessing approach, I probably wouldn’t recommend it. And neither would you.

Darshan Mehta  21:03

Well, I mean, there are some people that have really good intuition, and they have a good pulse of it. And sometimes, you know, they’re gonna have a better batting average. But in the long run, I think we can all improve your batting average, if I’m using a baseball term, but, you know, if you basically have more feedback, and are much more connected with your customers, and ultimately, if you think about it, you know, why do you even exist? If you’re not there to satisfy a customer need or want and help them, then chances are, you’re going to at some point, have a disconnect.

Christian Klepp  21:37

Yep. Well, totally agree. Totally agree. All right, Darshan, we get to the point in the conversation where you give us something actionable. So let’s appreciate and let me just set this up for a second here. Let’s appreciate that some of this stuff, you know, you can’t do like overnight. There isn’t an app that you can download, and you get all this stuff. But what are some immediate steps that you think B2B marketers can take to leverage insights from research for better results? So any quick wins any low hanging fruit?

Darshan Mehta  22:08

Yeah, I mean, the easiest start having conversations, right? Even if they’re one on one interviews, you’re just going to talk to more and more customers on a regular basis, and really have the right mindset to ask and be curious. And to delve deeper. And once you’re comfortable with that, then you can expand to doing let’s say, groups, or focus groups, online or in person, and then that’s a little bit more formalized. But I think you’ll see some great benefits coming from that. And then, of course, you know, also combine those efforts with doing surveys on a regular basis. And then, of course, don’t neglect all the other channels you’re gonna get feedback from customer service to people reaching out to you for various questions and issues. So all those things really add up. But more than anything, I think it’s about changing the mindset to be having structured curiosity, and willing to really listen to what people are really saying cuz sometimes people are not that articulate. And you have to really listen to what’s driving the pain point of the issue, beyond just what they’re saying.

Christian Klepp  23:08

Yeah, no, those are some really good points, you actually just made me think of something else. Which is another reason why companies should probably conduct market research regularly. Because the business environment and regulations change. And that might actually impact, that actually might impact their business. Right? Like, I mean, just think about the past two years. I’m not going to say the word but like, you know, you know, what’s been going on around the world, we just had a discussion about it.

Darshan Mehta  23:34

Something that starts with a C and ends with a D?

Christian Klepp  23:37

Yeah, I have heard. Exactly, exactly. But that aside, you’ve probably seen them to like these trends in different industries that were a long time coming anyway. Right?

Darshan Mehta  23:53

Well, that’s a big trend has definitely influenced the way people behave and act. And some of the decisions they’re making now. It’s absolutely made it an impact on decision making, at the personal level, but also at the professional level.

Christian Klepp  24:05

Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, we can’t really talk about insights of market research without talking about some kind of metrics or attribution, right. And I know that a lot of it really depends on what exactly you’re researching. But are there any specific metrics that you would say, B2B marketers should be paying attention to?

Darshan Mehta  24:28

You know, there’s lots of metrics that you can do, especially because of the digital world because you can track, you know, clicks, things like that you can do A|B testing. So that stuff is valuable. However, I think there might be a little bit too much emphasis on some of those metrics. And keep in mind, those metrics are telling you what people have done. But they still don’t tell you what drives it, what’s actually underlying the action that’s being taken. And that’s where I think if you have a better understanding of your customers. And you know, whether they’re having a good positive experience or not, quite honestly, if you know that and you know, you’re doing well on that front as a metric. All the other metrics should be pretty good then.

Christian Klepp  25:11

Yeah, no, that’s a fair point. That’s a fair point. But I guess, you know, kind of strike a balance because it’s going back to what you said before, sometimes when you do have conversations with customers, they might not necessarily know what the solution is right? They’re going to tell you what the what the challenges are in the pain point. But then it’s up to you to like, decide, okay, how to come up with a solution and how to kind of measure that, right? Like, put them into perspective?

Darshan Mehta  25:34

Sure. But they can give you feedback on the experience that they like it, they don’t like it. And so you can gauge that over time is that improving in terms of overall experience, and the interaction with you as a company at multiple points of interaction, right? That’s something you can definitely gauge and measure. And that’s something you can quantify over time. And that’s a measure. So there’s, there’s many things but I think, sometimes it’s a little bit over reliance on the metric, partly because you can get them right. Because you have a website, you have, let’s say, an online ordering system, you can actually test the clicks, you can see which ads people click on. So that information is there. And it’s valuable. I just think it needs to be balanced with understanding the context of what’s maybe behind the big data that we’re getting.

Christian Klepp  26:16

No, absolutely. Absolutely. All right, here’s an opportunity for you to get on your soapbox. Because you, you might have a lot to say when it comes to this question, but on a status quo that you passionately disagree with? And why?

Darshan Mehta  26:33

I think people who are not willing to change are often going to be inviting problems down the line, and also those who are not willing to listen to, maybe the person who’s a bit more critical, or what I would might consider complaining, because those are often the things that really are opportunities for change and innovation. And I think, as we talked about earlier, the one constant in life and in business is change. And your choice is not whether changes are going to occur. Your question to really answer that, do you want to be a subject of the change? Or do you want to be part of the change? And I think if you truly want to innovate and differentiate, then one of the best ways to do that is to garner insights. As I said in the book, I truly feel that today’s insights are tomorrow’s facts. I mean, if you look at the world around us, many things that we take for, like it’s always been there have not always been there, it’s because someone had an insight. And it created, for example, you and I grew up at a time, we did not have smartphones, or mobile devices like we do now. And now, I don’t think we can really live without them, you know, they become part of an everyday valuable piece of device that we use on a regular basis. But there’s a whole generation that grew up with it from day one, right. And so they think it’s part of the way the world is, but it wasn’t always that way. It was an insight that someone had, and it led to and in fact, even the phones we’re using now, are not the first generation. There have been many iterations that have come down to the ones we have now that basically don’t have keyboards that you know, are much more powerful, and so on. So these are all things that are stemmed from insights that someone had. And at some point, they became a fact of life.

Christian Klepp  28:15

I love that. I love that. And that was such a great anecdote. I mean, like, I remember back in my school days, like the payphone was a hit. Right? So you’d have people like queuing up to use the payphone. And then on my university days in Singapore, pagers were a hit. So for those of you in the audience that don’t know what a pager is, it’s, it’s not a mobile phone, I’ll tell you that. It buzzes and vibrates to let you know that you get a message, or you have somebody that’s trying to call you and you got to go to a payphone and dial a number, and then you listen to the message. And that’s the way that we used to communicate back then. Right. But somehow or other, despite not having mobile phones back then we still managed to meet up, right?

Darshan Mehta  28:56

Yeah.

Christian Klepp  28:57

Just gotta make sure you’re not you know, you’re in a place where the landline at some point, so that you can agree to meet and have, you know, arrange your appointment.

Darshan Mehta  29:05

Yeah, exactly. But you know, I’ve seen, there are basically three things that really drive, whether business is going to be successful. And then there’s a plus one. And those three things are ultimately, your chance of being successful. If you can do one of these is pretty good. But if you can do two or three, it’s even better. And that’s if you can save people time, money, or save them time or money or make it easier, right, your chance of being successful. If you can do one or all three are pretty good. However, if you can then tie that to an emotion, then your chance of being successful can be much more it can be maybe 6, 12, 12x, it really depends on the emotion you evoke. So those are the things that are going to most likely ensure that you’re successful.

Christian Klepp  29:53

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I mean, it sounds so easy in theory, but in application we all know that it does come with its own set of challenges for sure.

Darshan Mehta  30:03

Sure.

Christian Klepp  30:04

Darshan, this was an awesome conversation as expected. I really enjoyed having this discussion with you. So thanks again for your time, you know, quick intro to yourself and how people can get in touch with you.

Darshan Mehta  30:15

Sure, they can visit the website iresearch.com or just reach out to me via email at dm@iresearch.com. And it was a pleasure talking to you. I appreciate the opportunity Christian.

Christian Klepp  30:25

Thanks so much. So take care ,stay safe and I’ll talk to you soon.

Darshan Mehta  30:30

Sounds great I look forward to continuing the conversation.

Christian Klepp  30:33

Okay bye for now.