SPEAKERS

Christian Klepp, Mike Grinberg

Christian Klepp  00:00

Welcome to B2B Marketers on a Mission, a podcast for B2B marketers that helps you to question the conventional, think differently, disrupt your industry, and take your marketing to new heights. Each week, we talk to B2B marketing experts who share inspirational stories, discuss their thoughts and trending topics, and provide useful marketing tips and recommendations. And now, here’s your host and co-founder of EINBLICK Consulting, Christian Klepp.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast where you get your weekly dose of B2B marketing insights. I’m your host, Christian Klepp. And today, I am excited to welcome a fellow B2B marketer onto the show, who is in fact on a mission to show you the proof and get to the point. So coming to us live from Minneapolis, Minnesota, Mr. Mike Grinberg. Welcome to the show.

Mike Grinberg  00:50

Hey, Christian, thanks for having me. That’s an awesome intro. Now I’m gonna live up to the title, I guess.

Christian Klepp  00:58

It’s a little indication of things to come as I think what I like to call it. (laugh) But Mike, it’s so great to have you on the show. And I’m really looking forward to this discussion. You and your wife, Gabby, you guys are the business owners, right, of a B2B marketing agency called Proofpoint Marketing and the among your suite of solutions, I would say one of the things that you guys focus on is performance media. So just for the sake of the audience, break it down for us, and tell us why you think performance media is such an important component in B2B marketing campaigns.

Mike Grinberg  01:30

Sure, and I guess I should preface this with, I think, especially these days performance marketing is getting a little bad rep, because it’s generally associated with and probably rightly so I guess, to a certain extent, with just straight up lead generation, right, versus what we do, which is demand generation for the most part. And I think it’s it really comes down to the definition of what, what do you believe performance means. And, to us being a revenue marketing agency, performance just means driving revenue. So again, we sort of… we just define it a different way. So I want to preface that like, we’re, I’m not going to be talking a ton about lead generation as a whole like we’ve, we’ve done it I mean, we have I grew up in e commerce and more transactional sales, where lead generation, even still to this day, maybe works okay. If it’s something transactional over cost, but getting back to your question, I guess, why is performance marketing important? It’s because unless you are a giant brand with a huge following and a lot of organic opportunity, paid media as a whole is your best way to get your message in front of your audience, right, kind of it’s the only way you guarantee getting in front of the right people. Everything else is not guaranteed, per se.

Christian Klepp  03:05

Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a really great point. You know, it almost sounds obvious, right? Like the purpose why organizations exists to generate revenue. Right. But I think, and I believe that was your point is trying to tie that back to okay, your marketing efforts have to be designed to do that as well. Right. So the marketing team has to be accountable for revenue generation. Right. Great.

Mike Grinberg  03:29

Yep. Exactly. I think that’s where that’s where this whole performance marketing, kind of negative viewpoint kind of comes around where because usually, and historically, performance marketers have been judged on MQLs, right. And that’s the general sort of thing, like, if you look at what performance marketers do, that’s, that’s it. But the reality is, is it’s not about performance marketing is bad, you just need to reframe what performance marketing means. At least that’s our opinion.

Christian Klepp  03:56

Exactly, exactly. You’re gonna have a field day with this one, because you’ve obviously seen it all. So just just walk us through some of the, I’m gonna say the common misconceptions and the common mistakes that people have. And you’ve, you’ve alluded to some of them already. But you know, when it comes to performance media, and what do you think needs to be done to address those?

Mike Grinberg  04:19

The question about what, what the most common mistakes are? So, I mean, there are a lot obviously, um, I would say that, just two big ones, and I would say they’re very much related.

One is, there is… it’s kind of gets back to lead generation aspect, which is, there’s too much effort put into… too much, not an effort per se, but too much perceived value put into the targeting and the goal of collecting contact information. Right. The reality is targeting and contacts are table stakes. Right, I mean, there is zoom info and all the other tools like it, there’s like, you can buy emails, and you can buy contact info. And the reality is, as with traditional lead generation, that’s pretty much what you’re doing. But it’s, you’re probably paying more than you would if you were to buy a bunch of info from, you know, like a zoom info type company.

And, on the flip side, not enough effort and values put on to the creative execution side of things. Because it’s like, okay, well, we got the right people, let’s just get a couple of these static ads out there and let them run for the next three months and see what happens. When you see companies doing that still to this day, where they’re not iterating on their creative enough and on before… forget iterating, they’re not actually understanding their customers well enough, well, it’s easy to target the right people. Right? I mean, especially like, in the B2B side. Targeting LinkedIn is easy. You got all your firmographic info in your database, right, you go into Salesforce, and HubSpot, whatever it is you’re using, it’s okay, here’s my, here’s the, you know, 50 most used job titles that are the decision makers, here’s the types of companies they’re at, and you can analyze your data to understand who your people are, and then targeting them as easy. That’s, that’s the simple part. But people aren’t doing is getting the right insights and talking to the customers enough to actually get the right message in front of them. Right. So it’s like, I mean, software companies do this all the time, right, where it’s like, oh, feature, feature, feature feature feature and nobody cares, right? Because you’re not gonna win on features. You’re gonna win on, your… the point of view that you’re providing and the pain points you’re solving. Right? Like, what is the pain point they’re having, like, put that in front of them? And then like, that’s… those two are the big ones in my mind, obviously. Everything else, I think trickles down from there.

Christian Klepp  07:05

Right, right. No, that’s such a really, I mean, those are really great points that you brought up. And, you know, it’s back to the whole. A lot of companies do the whole like, me, me, me, me, me, look how great our product is. And they forget, like, you know, that really important point you brought up. So what’s in it for the target audience? What’s in it for the customer? How do they benefit from that?

Mike Grinberg  07:24

And one other one I want to add, sorry, to interrupt just popped into my head is I think there’s also a lot of marketers, I think, don’t understand the platforms well enough, either. Like, we’ve an agency. So we’ve just like you guys are, we’ve taken over plenty of, you know, accounts from either other agencies or internal teams. And one of the common things that we generally find is, I mean, whether it’s LinkedIn, whether it’s Facebook, like people aren’t testing enough of the different bidding, dating models, right? They’re not testing, engagement model versus traffic model versus conversion model to see what the performance potentially is. Right? And what the performance differences are, especially tying it down to revenue, because it’s very easy to say, Oh, well, I need to drive traffic to my site. So I’m gonna go for traffic, and I need to drive revenue, which means I need conversion, someone optimized only for that. But the reality is, you’re probably missing out on a lot of things, depending on what that content is that you’re putting out there. And so pretends sometimes the engagement model is what you want to go with, and that’s going to give you the best bang for your buck, downstream. But a lot of people don’t understand that. And don’t even think about testing those things. It’s like things like that.

Christian Klepp  08:39

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And why do you think that is? Is it like time pressure, resource pressure? Is it a combination of factors, I mean, like…

Mike Grinberg  08:50

It’s a good question, I don’t have an answer of why that is everywhere. I don’t know if  there’s a standard. I think. I think in, say, a startup environment, usually what you get, what you need, honestly, is a more of a generalist, right? Like, if you’re the first marketer at a company, oftentimes, rightly or wrongly, you are probably not the most senior marketer out there. And maybe you just don’t have the right experience. In more established companies, especially the larger ones, I think the model is just broken, where if top down, you’re being told that you’re being measured, and MQL still, you’re not gonna bother testing an engagement model or even a traffic model because, like, why I need conversions? I need leads. So I’m gonna do everything I can to do that, and the model optimizes towards that. So that’s what I’m gonna use. That’s it. And then again, that sort of that misunderstanding of what it needs to do. Everything like I said, everything trickles down from there, I think.

Christian Klepp  09:52

Yeah, absolutely. You know, something you just, you said a while ago that made me think about like, you know, the whole thing link to lead generation and whatnot. I mean, it seems like a lot of companies out there also trying to play the numbers game when it comes to things like performance media, right?

Mike Grinberg  10:08

Oh, for sure. I mean, it’s like… it used to work. It’s like HubSpot built their entire business model on the MQL funnel right? Now, sure. Now they’re doing. Sorry HubSpot. anybody listening. Now they’re doing this whole, you know, customer I forget what… the flywheel or whatever. But their tool and what most people are still using is still that same thing. It’s not really about the customer. It’s how can I get the contact? And then how can I nurture the contact through email and retargeting? You know, nurture doesn’t just mean email. And even just the word nurture bothers me sometimes, because it’s like, the nurture is so transactional for the most part, versus actually nurturing a relationship like you would like, you meet a new person… who meets people at bars anymore, but whatever. Like, you meet somebody, if you’re gonna nurture that relationship, you’re gonna try to give them something valuable, you’re going to try to have conversations like it’s not a one way, push. Right. And I think that’s where most nurtures go wrong is it’s like, well, email is just a push and retargeting is just a push, there’s no pull.

Christian Klepp  11:20

No, talk to us about, like, you’ve mentioned a couple of things in the past few minutes already, but talk to us what you believe are the key components required to actually have a successful performance media strategy for B2B?

Mike Grinberg  11:34

Again, I’m gonna go back to the two things that most people get wrong, which I would say is, number one, you have to have an insane amount of detail understanding of who your best customers are, and why. Right? Meaning, what are the problems and the pain points that they have, that you are able to solve? And from there, you need to have the right message, a point of view on their world that you are helping to create and to improve, not just about, like, hey, you’ve got this problem, and we can solve it. Like nobody cares about that. So can five other people. Right? But what is it, you know, people talk about differentiation, but a lot of the time, they don’t define what differentiation actually means. And like this is, you have to get a really deep knowledge of your customer. That’s number one. And number two, is you have to be creative. Because targeting, like I said, is table stakes.

Christian Klepp  12:31

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, on the topic of differentiation, I mean, you know, far, you know, all too often you hear okay, but we’re innovative. I’m like, okay, in what way?

Mike Grinberg  12:40

We’re innovative, where we have whatever, best in breed AI and blah, blah, blah, whatever. It’s like, Okay, great. So what? What is that? I don’t even know what that is.

Christian Klepp  12:55

Exactly! Yeah, that was a really nice segue into my next question, which is, you know, some example, ideally, from your own experience, of a great performance media campaign. And tell us about it, why you felt was so effective. And if you can just do it in the case study format, like, you know, situation, solution.

Mike Grinberg  13:16

Sure. Maybe just based on the base of what we’re talking about, I can talk about one that we literally just launched, it’s only a few days old now. But I can’t share the name of the customer. But it’s a they’re a medical device, or really a med tech engineering firm. So they do product development for other their service provider for you know, big name, medical companies. And their problem is, since we’re taking case study format, you know, the problem is long, extremely long cycles, cycles, we’re talking multiyear, usually. We’re talking and they’re large, it’s multimillion dollar deals often right, things like that. Really long sales cycles, limited resources. And really, the messaging… like they knew their customer, but the core things that customers needed weren’t really being put out there. And they weren’t really running any paid media before. I know, they tried like paid search and stuff like that, and not very successfully in the past. So what we’ve done so far is pretty much what we talked about, you know, we did in depth customer interviews we did in depth stakeholder interviews, we pulled together from there, really a target audience profile, and a content framework, or content strategy that’s mapped across the various, you know, journey stages. And based on that, we’ve created some key content and we’re not doing any lead gen. Right, because if you think about it, who in the right mind is going to download an eBook? Whether they read it or not, get contacted by sales or get a couple email sent, and then decide on signing a $2 million contract, like, it’s just not going to happen.

Christian Klepp  15:17

Nobody.

Mike Grinberg  15:18

The likelihood of that is zero. So again, what we’re doing is we’re putting informational and educational content out there about things that their target audience cares about. And that’s sort of a new way of thinking about a problem that’s uncommon, that’s different. Like they have a point of view on a number of things that are industry specific, and we’ve narrowed it down like, I mean, they can go after a bunch of industries. But we said, okay, let’s prove this out for this small sliver like this industry, this subgroup within that industry, and this service for that industry, right, which allows us to limit budget, you know, cost exposure, and all that fun stuff. That’s actually another going back to mistakes. People go too broad too soon. Like you have to go, you have to put in enough dollars, to get enough information fast enough. But you have to really define that target the channels, the tag, like everything has to be very, very defined within whatever that budget is, again, for these guys, it’s not very big, we’re talking, you know, what is it 12 grand over two months, they’re spending, so it’s not a lot of money, comparatively to some others. So anyway, so far, this thing has been live with like, three or four days. But here’s what we already know. The audience, the traffic that’s coming to their site from LinkedIn, is by far the most engaged, like their average, you know, site user, you know, views, maybe like 1.5 pages and spends maybe a minute and a half on the site. Everything coming from LinkedIn is five plus minutes on the site and looking at, I can’t remember off top my head, I think it’s like, three or four pages, on average. So they’re very engaged. We also know the engagement rate on there, on the paid posts, and the ones that are engagement focused are very good. A fairly decent percentage of people are viewing like the video content we have out there, which is case study, case story format, is being viewed all the way through by 10% plus. Yeah, the shorter form videos even higher than that, right. So it’s, the message is resonating. We know it’s the right audience, because again, that’s table stakes, like finding the right audience was easy. Yeah. But you know, it took us several months to get the creative done. And it’s very technical industry. So you know, we had to do like, for every piece of content we wrote, we got to interview people and things like that. So already, we know that engagement is better than anything we’ve done before. The traffic is more engaged on their site than anything ever before, leads are going to come at some point. You know, we’ve, again, it’s early on, but just the early indicator, and the other thing is like the click through rate, for example, I know we’re talking marketing metrics, not revenue, but we’re gonna be doing a pre and post analysis for them long term that’s gonna tie this thing to revenue. And we’ve got all the tracking setup to see if any lead comes through, it’s all tagged and all that fun stuff.

Christian Klepp  18:13

I’m gonna say, yeah, that’s certainly better than average. Like, for sure. And, you know, going back to the beginning of, you know, like, the discussion about this particular client, I mean, it’s just the classic B2B problem isn’t it? Like longer sales cycles, limited internal resources, specifically for marketing. And, and I think you brought up a really good point, which is, you know, which is going back to like what you guys did for them? It’s like getting a deeper understanding about who it is they’re actually targeting. Right? And…

Mike Grinberg  18:46

Again, the ‘who’ is the easy part? It’s the ‘why are they the right people to target in the first place’, and ‘what do they care about’ Right? Because, again, the who is, you know, you don’t even need to talk to anybody to understand who.

Christian Klepp  18:57

No.

Mike Grinberg  18:58

And one of the things is just in terms of like, results is, you know, looking at engagement in terms of like, who is liking the ads? I mean, the volume is small, it’s only been running for a few days here. But it’s engineers, product development engineers and stuff like that, that are engaging within like, you know, liking and whatever, following their page from this. So it’s. Obviously, we know it’s the right audience, but they are engaging, meaning the message is resonating.

Christian Klepp  19:26

Right. It’s, it’s a specific niche of that particular market that they’re going after.

Mike Grinberg  19:31

Yep.

Christian Klepp  19:32

All right. Awesome.

Hey, it’s Christian Klepp here. We’ll get back to the episode in a second. But first, is your brand struggling to cut through the noise? Are you trying to find more effective ways to reach your target audience and boost sales? Are you trying to pivot your business? If so, book a call with EINBLICK Consulting. Our experienced consultants will work with you to help your B2B business to succeed and scale. Go to www.einblick.co for more information.

We’ re not going to talk about COVID. Alright, we’re not going to talk about the pandemic. But what I do want to talk to you about is, what are some of the significant changes that you’ve seen to the B2B performance media landscape as a result of the pandemic?

Mike Grinberg  20:16

I think I mean, just like pretty much everything else out there, whether it be, you know, remote work and you know, telemedicine and things like that. I think the pandemic has been a force multiplier and extreme accelerator for a lot of changes have been happening for years. Right? I mean, it’s like, slowly, all these things have been happening. It’s the same thing with paid media where this shift from this lead gen focused, you know, volume game, to a more strategic demand focused inbound game, I think that’s the bit that that shift is been a huge to me. A lot of companies are doing it. The other big thing I would say this is maybe a paid media specific, but it definitely impacts it, which is, again, the example that we just talked about… that type of company, it’s very typical, where medical device and manufacturing and regulated industries, things like that have been generally very sales driven organizations. And, again, this change has been happening for a while. But it’s been extremely accelerated, where people just don’t want to talk to salespeople too soon, they want to do their own research, they want to understand what you do, and it’s easy for them, right, because the other thing that’s proliferated over this time is like micro communities and things like that. I mean, they’ve sprung up out of out of the woodwork. I mean, they’re always a thing beforehand. But so many new ones bring up over the last 15 months, because people are social creatures. And if we can’t be in a community in person, we are sure as heck gonna figure out how to do it virtually. We did. And because of that… information, like word of mouth has become, it was always a thing. But it’s even more of a thing, right. And because of that, the paid media landscape has changed. Again, that’s driven, I think, is driving this change from lead generation MQL, toss it over of the fence to sales, sales, as your lead, suck all that fun stuff, too, are not fun stuff, I guess, to this, okay, let’s be more strategic and get the right content in front of the right people. Focus on content consumption, focus on the right message and get the right value proposition and all that all those things. Get that into our, into the paid media side of things. I think that that’s really the that’s the shift. Right. And I think the this social, the societal, social factors. I don’t know what I’m saying. But those are things that have driven that change.

Christian Klepp  22:51

Yeah, no, absolutely. And, um, this is probably not going to be a yes or no answer. But have you seen on budgets shrink, expand, rollback?

Mike Grinberg  23:00

I mean, if we’re talking about pandemic, back to the beginning, yeah. I mean, we had clients that just cut virtually all paid media or cut off for the majority of marketing budgets. And again, those are those are organizations that are generally, traditionally sales organizations. They made the mistake, at least in my opinion, not just because we’re marketing agency, but they made the mistake of going oh, the and we literally, we had customers tell us this back then, which is: look, we’re going to cut all marketing. There was one client that they literally severed all of their external marketing relationships, and pretty much the only thing the only thing they kept doing internally was like paid search at a minimal basis, and they said, Look, the only way we’re going to get in front of people is we’re going to talk to them or, you know, boots on the ground, were to shake hands or whatever, like, Alright. Good luck. Everyone was at home. I don’t know how you’re gonna do that. Okay. And I mean, they’ve done all right, I guess. We haven’t really kept up with it. But I can guarantee you, they probably would have been better off had they figured out a way to make the shift. Long term… you know, we’ve had some companies have increased budgets, where they’re like, Hey, this is especially like, again, depending on the timeframe we’re talking. A lot of people cuts. Everything’s like oh, you know, the inventory is cheaper, let’s spend more. Right. I mean, you saw it happen. I mean, again, we generally do B2B but you know, you saw it happen in e commerce, for sure. And like more on the B2C space, but in the B2B space as well, the companies that weren’t as effective in terms of the vertical they were in like, Well, okay, inventory is cheaper, let’s spend more. Right, especially the ones that were… and again whether they were doing it the right way, lead gen or, or say the ‘wrong way’, let’s say lead gen. I put that in quotes, because again, it can still work in certain instances but or the right way, but so we’ve seen it all I guess. that’s a cheer question…

Christian Klepp  24:57

That’s a fair point. That’s a fair point. It really depends on who you are talking about, the scope or the situation and whatnot. What is a status quo in your area of expertise, and let’s just narrow it down to a performance media that you passionately disagree with and why?

Mike Grinberg  25:17

I’ll give you, I’m gonna give you two, it’s hard for me to pick one.

The first one I haven’t disagreed as much as I disagree with the emphasis that’s still put on it in a lot of organizations, which is search marketing. And, again, this is coming from somebody who… this is where I grew up, I, the first thing I ever did was paid search and SEO like that. That was where I got my start. And that is where I have a ton of experience. Now, I’m not saying that it doesn’t work. However, I think that, because everything we just talked about, the way people get their information, the way people research all that stuff, especially when you talk about complex B2B sales. Search is not as important anymore, for most, I would say, for a lot of industries. It’s got to… it has its place. For sure. Like, specifically, we’re talking paid, so focus on paid search. But, you know, there’s so much bloat in the vast majority of accounts that we will take over and that we review in terms of people just going after all this top funnel stuff, and they’re paying for it’s like, these are not the right people. They’re not your target audience. And again, with search, you can’t control from firmographics, not exactly, there are some hacks and things like that. And we can get into that if you really want to. But for the most part, you can’t really control firmographics. And because of that, you are at the mercy of saying, Oh, well, whatever, I’ll give you an example, um ERP software, right? If you are not serving SMBs, let’s just say and you’re enterprises, SMB provider, vast majority of people searching for ERP software are not your customer, they are SMBs. Guaranteed, right. So whatever you’re spending on ERP software, is a waste of money, most likely. You’re gonna get a lot of leads, but they’re probably gonna be crap. Like if, again, if your focus is enterprise. If you’re if you’re servicing SMBs, probably maybe a different story. Like if we focus on… I’ll give a different example. Because if you’re focused, if you’re in the in the service business, again let’s take our client that we talked about recently, we are doing some paid search for them. It’s very, very, very limited. It’s things like IVD, product development firm, or keywords like it’s very, very like, clearly your intent is I am looking for you. It’s not a whatever IVD product development process or just general product development, well, whatever medical product development, best practices, and yet, when we take over a lot of accounts, that’s the stuff that’s in there, like, it makes no sense to pay for that. If you want to go after it, maybe it makes sense to do it in an organic from organic. But even then the question is, are your people actually searching for this? Right? Because it’s, again, as an example. In that sense, there’s a difference between what startup what like a startup founder that maybe isn’t as technical is going to search for versus what a director of R&D at Roche is going to search for, you know what I mean? Like they’re just not, they’re not going to look for things like process, maybe your entry level engineer, they just hired might and maybe that makes sense for you. I think again, you have to understand who you’re going after and whatnot. But that’s my biggest thing is, like a lot of in general search gets, I think, more focus than it needs to in B2B.  And this is coming from a search marketer.

Christian Klepp  28:55

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Grinberg  28:56

I told I told you, I’m gonna give you another one. Yeah. My other one is, a lot of especially… I especially see this in the two years, I see them in like larger enterprise companies. And I see them in very small, kind of like bootstrap startups, where the marketers tend to be more, we’ll say, more junior and less experienced in both cases that are handling the actual accounts. They take way too much advice from the platform providers and platform reps, like your Google rep is not going to tell you the best way to optimize your account. Your LinkedIn rep is not going to tell you the best way to optimize your account. They are literally incentivized on getting you to spend more money. That’s it. So very basic. If you talk to just about any LinkedIn rep, they will tell you oh yeah, turn on audience expansion, waste of money, don’t do it. You know who your target is. You don’t need LinkedIn to tell you to expand your audience.

Christian Klepp  29:51

No, that sounds…. That’s absolutely right. I mean, like is, their interest is to you know, upsell you on existing services, right? They’re not going to give you that The holistic picture that you were talking about right?

Mike Grinberg  30:02

When they don’t understand your business, that’s the big thing. They don’t understand your business, they don’t understand your customers, they can’t. Because these guys, these reps are assigned to hundreds of accounts. And again, they’re pretty much a glorified sales rep.

Christian Klepp  30:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, Mike, this has been such a great session. And, you know, please do us the honor of introducing yourself and that word in the street that you that you’ve dabbled in mixed martial arts too.

Mike Grinberg  30:26

That word in the street is true. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it’s I, I don’t compete, I don’t compete anymore. And then I never competed mixed martial arts. I did. I did Muay Thai for a long time, I’ve been doing martial arts as a kid. It’s still… still my sport of choice. Like, I still train and I’m actually so glad that the vaccines are out. And I can go back to doing a little bit more of being, you know, in close contact with people because you can’t really do it…

Christian Klepp  30:53

Let’s say you can’t do it virtually. Can you?

Mike Grinberg  30:55

No, it’s funny, there were some gyms that tried, and I’m like, I don’t know, why would I.. I can’t. No. So anyway, so Yes, that is true. Yeah, I mean, you already said, I mean, Gabby and I, my wife and I run Proofpoint Marketing. Here’s the website. You can find us there. I’m very active on LinkedIn. Anybody wants to chat about really anything marketing related? That’s the best place to find me.

Christian Klepp  31:26

Fantastic. Mike. This has been an extremely informative, insightful session. And that you know, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing. Take care, be safe and send my best to Gabby and Lada.

Mike Grinberg  31:39

I will do. Thank you very much. And yeah, you do you pass on our regards as well. And thanks for having me.

Christian Klepp  31:44

Thank you. Take care.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast. To learn more about what we do here at ELIBLICK, please visit our website at www.einblick.co and be sure to subscribe to the show on iTunes or your favorite podcast player.