How to Get 90% Pre-sold Buyers Using Psychology-driven Marketing

Christian Klepp  00:01

Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking with Rai Cornell. She is a marketing psychologist, strategist and the founder of Cornell content marketing. Together with her team, she helps to transform the way companies market to their audiences by leveraging a deep understanding of human behavior, behavioral changes and neurotransmitters. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is.

Christian Klepp  00:32

 All right, I’m gonna say Rai Hyde Cornell, welcome to the show.

Rai Cornell  00:37

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Christian. 

Christian Klepp  00:40

Great to have you on the show, and I really enjoyed our previous conversation and the conversation that we had just before I hit record, because I think I’ve learned more about you, I should say, in these past 20 minutes, than I have in the past couple of months. And that’s always a good thing, right?

Rai Cornell  00:56

Yep, always is amazing. What comes up just in those little GET TO KNOW YOU little tidbits of connection there. 

Christian Klepp  01:02

Absolutely, absolutely. So let’s dive into today’s topic, because I’m going to say we’ve had many guests on the show talk about B2B content marketing from different facets and perspectives, but we’ve never quite had anybody come on the show that is going to be discussing this next topic, which I’m not going to give too much away right now, but let’s just say it’s highly relevant, not just for B2B content marketing, but for B2B marketing in general. 

Christian Klepp  01:30

But it very rarely gets discussed, and part of that might be because a few people actually understand how to approach it, all right? So I’m gonna, like, stop keeping the audience in suspense, and I’m going to actually reveal what the topic is, right? That might be a good way to start. So you’ve been on a mission for a bit now, to help B2B businesses become thought leaders by creating long term demand generation strategies and eliminating short term manipulative tactics like ads. 

Christian Klepp  02:00

So today we’re going to focus on a topic that I think is going to be useful to B2B marketers, and it’s how to get 90% of pre-sold buyers using psychology driven marketing. And I know that that seems like a very, very deep kind of term, but let’s unpack it here, right? And we’re going to kick off this conversation with this question, why do you believe that psychology driven marketing is so important in B2B?

Rai Cornell  02:29

Because ultimately, you know, a lot of B2B businesses, they take it literally when they think they are business to business, and that lends itself. That kind of thinking lends itself to being very sterile in your communications and very logic oriented, where all you want to talk about are features and benefits and cost savings and ROI and of course, those are important elements to the decision making process. But it’s not businesses that are making a decision. It’s humans, and humans are driven by psychology. And, you know, we’ve talked even just in the short amount of time, we’ve thrown out a lot of buzz words. We’re talking about thought leadership, psychology, demand generation, B2B marketing, organic, without all the manipulative tactics. You know, we’re throwing around a lot of these terms, but really everything that that comes back to is helping businesses heal the relationships between their brand and their buyers. And the reason psychology is so pivotal in all of that is because the way to heal those relationships is by treating people with respect and treating them like humans, not treating them like transactions.

Christian Klepp  03:49

What a great way to kick off this conversation. Absolutely, absolutely. And I did have a follow up question for you, Rai, just based on what you’ve been saying, right? And you’ve probably seen this online, especially on LinkedIn, more times than you care to count, especially in B2B content marketing. I don’t know if you have a feeling, you know what I’m gonna say, but like, there’s a lot of talk out there, and several camps of people in the specific field of yours that are saying that no, in fact, B2B, content marketing has to be sterile, has to be factual, has to be logical, because it should appeal to a buying committee that consists of people in procurement and people that deal with vendors and and all these different other functions, right? So I bring all of that up to say that B2B content at the end of the day must be boring. Boring wins at the end of the day. So I’m going to get off my soapbox now and over to you your thoughts on that.

Rai Cornell  04:56

So the thing is, yes, there is a place for that very clinical, cut and dry, black and white. Here’s what’s included. Here’s what’s not, here’s what you can expect. Here’s the ROI (Return On Investment). There is a place for that. But the problem is it’s at the bottom of the funnel. We as humans tend to like to think of ourselves as very logic oriented, very rational, level headed decision makers, and we’re not. We are very emotion driven. And the thing that I love about this marriage of psychology and marketing, and it’s so funny that, you know, back in the day, if I go back 18 years ago, I was on a path to be a counselor in the prison system, and I worked in drug rehab centers and community counseling centers and a mental hospital, and I had this deep understanding of the paradigms of how we look at the world as human beings, how we shape our behaviors, and then to completely pivot over to something like marketing and for our models of understanding of human behavior to match up so perfectly with the marketing funnel of brand awareness, interest, decision, action, and then I always like to say there’s a fifth stage that a lot of people forget about, which is retention, but for that funnel to map so perfectly to the way we process information in the way we form bonds, in the way that we decide to take steps closer to people and things in our world.

Rai Cornell  06:30

It tells me that there is something so valuable here, and what a lot of the people who you’re referring to who say, Oh no, B2B marketing and content has to be very clinical and cut and dry and logical? Well, you’re never going to get to that point of the decision, because the initial stages. There’s two forks here. One is usually the people who are bringing you to that logic oriented table and conversation are the gatekeepers who make a decision based on, Ooh, I like this post, or, I like this article that really helped me get closer to satisfying a request that my boss sent me on. Or, oh, this branding is very intriguing and interesting. And of course, these are all subliminal things that people are processing beneath the surface, but they have to like you and feel comfortable before they’re even open to processing the logical information and bringing you to that you know, superficially logical decision making conversation, even though there’s still emotion and relationship built under there. And the other thing I’ll say about that is I don’t know a single person in the business world who wouldn’t agree with the statement that a huge part of business success is not what you know, but who you know, which tells us it’s all about relationships and using content to form emotional bonds and relationships with people before they have a conversation with your sales reps. That goes a long, long way to giving you more cachet in that conversation when it does get to the logic point.

Christian Klepp  08:15

Absolutely, absolutely. And also you’ll agree with me on this, I’m sure. But nobody wakes up in the morning and says, You know what I want to do today? I’m going to read some boring content, right? 

Rai Cornell  08:28

Yes, there was a study I was just reading the other day about what lasts longer in someone’s memory and joy, laughter, those are things that cause memories to be more deep seated. There was a study that did this kind of exposure of someone looking at a page that had competing ads and non competing ads. Competing ads were, let’s say, two brands of laptop computers shown on the same page and another page of non competing ads, where you may have had a laptop computer, a cell phone and a keyboard, where they’re not selling the exact same product. And the study showed that when people were delighted, when they were introduced with humor and joy, they remembered the brands far longer in both instances than if you lead with scarcity tactics and trying to create a negative mood. So it’s this, you have to focus on how people feel, and if you lead with that at the top of the funnel, then they’re willing to come closer to you, learn more, spend more time with you, consider you more. And you can get to the logical part of the conversation, which is when all of those you know, battle cards and case studies and things like that, really. Come into play. 

Christian Klepp  10:01

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. I’m gonna move us on to the next question, which is about key pitfalls that B2B content marketers need to avoid and what they should be doing instead.

Rai Cornell  10:14

Yeah. So this really goes back to respecting your buyer. I think a lot of us in B2C relationships with brands have had the experience where we feel duped, or we go up. It had got me. The ad got me. Because you see something eye-catching. You see this grand promise, you click it, you engage with it, and then suddenly, Oh, it’s not what I thought it was. And how did I go down this rabbit hole? And, oh, I feel a little manipulated. I feel a little duped. I feel kind of lied to. 

Rai Cornell  10:50

We can’t do that in the business to business world either, because that’s really where we start to break down trust and in business to business deals, the sales conversation lasts so long. Months, sometimes even years, and if you’re breaking down trust at the very first encounter with these manipulative scarcity FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out), you know, trying to pressure someone into Making a decision before they’re ready. Sorts of tactics that those are the biggest pitfalls I see in marketing that is going to make sure that you’re let you’re leaving a bad taste in their mouth, as opposed to if you do the opposite, you build trust, you go slow, you allow your buyer to set the pace, and you are there for them every step of the way, answering questions and guiding them along the stages of change model. That’s where you’re going to be the one with the endurance to make it to that final decision making conversation at the end of that long buyer journey.

Christian Klepp  11:57

Absolutely, absolutely. And I’m totally with you on avoiding the use of manipulative tactics, or creating the sense of urgency. I mean…

Rai Cornell  12:07

Yes.

Christian Klepp  12:07

I don’t know about you, but creating the sense of urgency, I get that, but especially in these, like you said, some of these B2B transactions. I mean, we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? You can’t be using the same, I’m gonna call them supermarket tactics, right? Like the promo expires next week.

Rai Cornell  12:26

Right, right. Or get those flowers before Valentine’s Day, or whatever the case may be. Those are situations where, yes, a clock is relevant. But nowadays, buyers are so much more savvy than they were 5, 10, 20 years ago, and if you use those tactics, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot. And the problem is a lot of companies focus too much on ROI in a short time frame, and what they’re sacrificing is more ROI over a longer time frame.

Christian Klepp  12:58

Yep, Yep, absolutely. I have one follow up question, just based on the things that you said earlier, actually, your take on injecting humor into B2B content, what are your thoughts on that?

Rai Cornell  13:11

Yeah, I love it. It’s one of the things that it’s so disarming and in B2B relationship building. We are all so readily armed. If you think about just the way that you interact with your own LinkedIn profile, where you log into your account, maybe you check your messages, you see who sent you an in mail versus who sent you a connection request. How often is your default assumption? Oh, this person’s just trying to sell me something. Why is this person reaching out to me? Why do they want to connect? What are they trying to get me to buy? We are also armed and guarded, whereas, when you use humor, the simple fact of making someone laugh, and I tried to do this on all of my quote, unquote sales calls, which I call them because people know what sales calls are, but I never think of them as sales calls. They’re problem, solution brainstorming calls. But I always try to get somebody to laugh, because they’re only going to open up to me and really get into the meat of what we can actually accomplish together. Or if I’m not the right one to work with them, at least tell me what I can do to help them connect with the right person. That’s only going to happen. We’re only going to get to the most valuable information when they are at ease, and laughter is the quickest path to ease.

Rai Cornell  14:29

So if you can make someone laugh with a LinkedIn post, an article, a video, an ad, an infographic, something that not only tells them, oh, this company would be enjoyable to work with, but also, oh, my God, they get me like we can both laugh about the same shared experience and how ridiculous or how painful, or how, you know, mind numbingly challenging it is to encounter. Then you’re starting on. Shared ground. And that’s really what laughter and humor does, is it brings you together on that shared ground.

Christian Klepp  15:05

Well, it’s the best medicine, as they say, right? And by the way, I’m going to steal that one for a LinkedIn post, laughter is the quickest path they ease.

Rai Cornell  15:15

Yeah, good. Absolutely, the more people who are doing this, the more people who and that’s really when we talk about marketers on a mission. My mission is to heal those relationships between businesses and buyers, and if you can share a laugh together, I mean, instantly your relationship is a little bit more healed, and so the more people we can get using these tactics and being more human to one another. Mission accomplished.

Christian Klepp  15:42

Correct, correct, absolutely. I’m gonna move us on to the next question, which we’re I’m not gonna say we’re gonna psychoanalyze people, but let’s dive into the psychology aspect of it, right? And you can’t talk about the psychological aspect of it without conducting research, right?

Rai Cornell  16:02

Right.

Christian Klepp  16:03

So when you’re leveraging psychology driven marketing, as I said, conducting the right research, having the right strategy also are important, right? So how can B2B marketers go about doing this quickly and efficiently? Because, let’s be honest, not everybody has 12 months to do research and then implement these initiatives.

Rai Cornell  16:25

Yeah, absolutely. So, yes, research is important. Yes, outside data is important. But I think a lot of companies, especially when they’re faced with a fork in the road where they have to decide, okay, either we are going to commit to this long journey of research and go all in on that it’s going to take 12 months, or we could do this shorter route and commit to learning along the way. They often discount how much knowledge they really have inside of their organization, and this is when marketing often misses an opportunity to speak to other departments within a company. 

Rai Cornell  17:09

So for example, one of the first things that I like to do when I start working with a new company is set up this feedback loop between the sales team and the marketing team, getting these two departments working in the same direction, as opposed to being rivals who point the finger at one another. Marketing also needs to talk to service delivery. They need to talk to customer support. They need to talk to the people who are talking to the people, and really figure out, what do we know about our dream customers, the ones that we hope stay with us for years and years and years. What do we know about them? What are they struggling with? What are they asking for help on how are they using our product or service? When you tap into that wealth of knowledge that you already have and do that internal data analysis, you can leap yourself forward in magnifying your results of more of what you want, you already have some great clients and customers. Magnify how much of that you have by examining that particular subset of data.

Christian Klepp  18:15

Yeah, no, absolutely. I totally agree with that, even just from previous experience, that it’s really important for content marketers, especially not to like, pick whatever analogy you want, like working in silos, being up in their ivory tower, working in isolation, they have to work through this ecosystem within the organization. And I agree with you, it shouldn’t just be through the sales. It should also be through customer support. I was in a previous role where we had inbound and outbound sales complete. They’re both sales, completely different scenarios, though, right? And, and even for the BD (Business Development), are you talking about retainer accounts? Are you talking about project based accounts, I get different situation, right? Yeah, and each of them comes with their own unique set of challenges, objectives. The clients also have different goals and motivations for working with the company, right?

Rai Cornell  19:16

Exactly. And you know, you’re asking about, how do we start to kind of psychoanalyze quickly, if we can look at that internal subset of data. And then one of the things that I love pulling into marketing conversations is what’s known as the CBT triangle. So CBT is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and it’s a really popular psychotherapy modality used to help people with depression and anxiety. And the reason that it works so well is because this triangle, which consists of thoughts, emotions and behaviors, and it kind of, you can kind of think of it like the recycling triangle, where they all feed into one another, and it all cycles back around and around and around.

Rai Cornell  19:58

If you look at those three elements of your ideal customers, thoughts, emotions and behaviors, and you see, okay, where are they going off course? You know this is what we do in therapy and in counseling. Is we go, okay, your thoughts about this particular experience are causing you to have these particular emotions, which are causing you to choose these particular behaviors. And if you can look at that cycle and see where things are going awry, where people are flying out of your funnel instead of getting more comfortable in your funnel and going further down the process, that’s where you can interrupt. You can course correct. You can change those thoughts. You can change those feelings and emotions, and you can then change those behaviors. 

Rai Cornell  20:44

And if you really understand what’s working and what’s not, for the people that form the majority of your ideal clientele base, that’s when you really start to find not only your brand voice, but in that’s your marketing messaging, but you also start to find your marketing methods and mechanisms, whether that’s going to be particular types of content, like how to content or motivational content or data reporting content, you know, depending on what is really driving that particular segment of your target audience, and then also your mechanisms. Where are they consuming it? How are they consuming it? Video, text, podcasts, infographics, AI (Artificial intelligence) search, whatever the case may be. But it all starts with that internal experience that your ideal customer is having based on their thoughts, emotions and then the derivative behaviors.

Christian Klepp  21:47

Great answer, Rai, and I wasn’t, I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic there. I mean it however, I’m gonna play the devil’s advocate now, all right, because you’ve probably run into this before. I mean, especially working with B2B, you brought up so many very profound insights regarding behavior, thoughts, emotions, what triggers people, what motivates them, what motivates them to look for a specific solution or product, things of that nature. How do you take this psychology aspect of it and package it? How should I put this for a customer who has a senior management consisting mostly of CFOs, CIOs, CSOs, you get the picture, right?

Rai Cornell  22:38

Yeah. 

Christian Klepp  22:39

That are going to look at. Are going to look at everything that you’ve just said and said, and would react like, Okay, how is this actually going to help us. 

Rai Cornell  22:48

Right, right. 

Christian Klepp  22:48

How is this going to move our business forward? We get what you’re saying, Doc, right? But like, how is this going to help move our business forward, and how is this going to impact the initiatives that the marketing team is going to roll out.

Rai Cornell  23:02

Right. So when it comes to those C suite decision makers, particularly the ones that are focused on revenue drivers, I think it all comes down to finding a common ground. And I think everyone can agree. And this is why, even though it may feel trite and overused the marketing funnel is that common ground for all decision makers, and what I mean by that is, everyone wants the conversion at the bottom of the funnel, right? But I think everyone can agree, both logically and experientially. If you look at your past history as a marketer that in order for people to get to the action stage, they have to get to the decision stage. And in order for them to get to the decision stage, they have to have interest in your brand, and in order for them to have interest in your brand, they have to be aware of you. 

Rai Cornell  23:55

And each of those things ties to parts of what you’re going to execute in your marketing. So brand awareness is all about visibility. Interest is all about traffic, traffic to your website, your landing pages, and then the decision in action is all about engagement. You want people to take action and actually show initiative of coming towards you. And so if you can all agree on that, then it becomes very clear, and it becomes very metrics oriented. If you look at your metrics and your visibility metrics are poor, and your interest metrics are poor, and your conversion and engagement metrics are poor, well then where do we need to start? We don’t need to start at the bottom. That’s not going to do you any good, because still, nobody’s going to get into the funnel. You have to start at the top. You have to start with your visibility. 

Rai Cornell  24:46

And even though, in my experience, and I think a lot of people have had this same experience, the Chief Revenue Officers and the Chief Financial Officers, they care about conversion. They can all agree, there’s nothing to convert if you don’t have brand awareness. And so you have to look at the numbers very objectively and see where are we strong and where are we weak. And you know, I have worked with companies that have fantastic brand awareness numbers. Their visibility is great. Their SEO (Search Engine Optimization) ranking numbers are great. Their followers on social media, especially LinkedIn, are great, but they’re not getting the traffic and they’re not getting the conversions. If that’s the case, well then that points you exactly to where you need to start fixing the problem, and that means your top of funnel is doing really well. You’re doing great with your top of funnel content, but now you need to focus on the interest aspect of it. 

Rai Cornell  25:46

And this is where, again, psychology really comes in tanned because what that means, and this is where I like to reflect it onto the stages of change model. What that means is your target audience may be aware of the problem. So in the stages of change model, there’s the pre problem awareness, there’s problem awareness, there’s pre contemplation, there’s contemplation, and then there’s action. And again, voila, that maps up perfectly to the marketing funnel Exactly. And so what that tells you is, if your top of funnel content is performing really well, the metrics say so then they know that there’s a problem. What they don’t know is that there’s a solution that they need to contemplate changing too. And so that’s where you can really focus. This is where the big, ginormous question in any marketing room is, what do we talk about? What do we create? And that’s where psychology points you to, exactly what you need to create.

Christian Klepp  26:48

You’ve clearly been asked this question before.

Rai Cornell  26:53

It’s it all you know, when we start talking about marketing and psychology, it sounds very heady, and it sounds very like this amorphous conceptual idea and this philosophy, but it’s very practical, and that’s why I love pairing data analytics with the stages of change model in the CBT triangle and the marketing funnel, because they all point you in the same direction. It’s like using triangulation when you’re trying to find someone’s cell phone out in the forest. You are triangulating exactly where you need to start and where you need to solve problems in your funnel when you use all of these tools together.

Christian Klepp  27:35

Absolutely, absolutely, no. I do love the way that you’ve packaged that and how you’ve it’s it’s almost like telling a story, right? Like the different components in the story are interconnected. And I think what you’ve shown us in these past couple of minutes, is the strong correlation between all these, we can say moving parts, because there are a lot, right? No, that’s, that’s, that’s absolutely right. So on to the next question, just from your experience, and I know that it really depends on the industry, the company, the stage the company is at, but like just from your own experience, are there any content formats or assets that you would recommend to B2B marketers just based on what you’ve seen out there?

Rai Cornell  28:19

Yeah, so there’s what people want, and then there’s how they find what they want. And these are two very different questions. You know, I think we’ve all in marketing, heard that phrase of, if you try speaking to everyone, you’re speaking to no one. And so a lot of companies try to create all different kinds of format content. They’ll create text based long form content, and then they’ll chop that up and create infographics from it, so we have static images. And then they might also create videos or create kind of like a podcast version of that long form content, and then they might chop that up into short form videos that can be distributed over social and unfortunately, I have to tell everyone listening to this, that’s what you have to do. You have to do that. You have to create all the different formats of content, because humans will want to consume it in different ways. You know, prior to hitting record on this episode, you and I were talking about how, you know, I’m one of those weirdos who would rather read a 2000 word article than watch a two minute video. Just do not put a video in front of me. I will read and read and read and read all day long. I will listen to audio books, but I will not watch a video. And then you’ve got someone like my husband, who’s the exact opposite. He’s like, I will not read two sentences, but I will watch a two hour video on how to do this thing. So you have such diversity in how people consume content nowadays, so you have to be catering to that. 

Rai Cornell  29:55

But ultimately, if that feels overwhelming, what I recommend is. Focusing on what’s going to make Google and now SEO in the time of AI very happy, and the reason you have to focus on that is because when you cater your content modalities to the humans, you have to do everything. And you’re never going to please everyone by focusing on one particular thing. You just have to do it all, whereas, if you focus instead on them even finding your content before they decide if they even enjoy your particular modality, you have to please google and the AI search. And now my answer would have been very, very different four years ago, but now long form content, which includes snippets of quick, short answers that the AI can grab as a feature, coupled with a focus on images embedded within your content. And here we go again video you can progressively work through these things. So that’s typically what I do with companies. When we’re trying to figure out how to triage all of this content that we have to do, you start with the long form text, because that is, if you can get that right, everything else is derivative from it, and it’s going to be so much easier to make all the other criteria satisfied.

Christian Klepp  31:24

Thank you for breaking that down for us. And it almost sounds to me, and I’m going to oversimplify it now, Rai, but it almost sounds to me like somebody that says I’m going to, you know, I want to get a six pack, but they don’t want to put in all that work. They don’t want to put in and they don’t realize that it’s not just about doing the cardio, it’s also about watching what you eat or not eat, right? So there’s this whole combination of factors involved there, and I, and I agree with you, because I do quite a bit of this, like content, development and copywriting myself, that you have to put in the work. You have to put in the work of writing out the long form content, and then you can, I’m just gonna throw in another analogy here. Get more juice out of the squeeze, right? 

Rai Cornell  32:13

Yeah, absolutely. 

Christian Klepp  32:14

Or chop it up, as, I think, another popular term that everybody loves to use now, like, especially with video, like, chop it up into snippets or clips or like what you said, extract them, extract some insights from that long article, and create an infographic out of it, right? So something that would have been very dry and factual can actually now be very visually interesting because you’ve turned it into an infographic, right? Things of that nature.

Rai Cornell  32:39

Yes, and it’s very difficult to go from having something like, okay, so a lot of companies nowadays, they think, Oh, we have to do video, video that’s so powerful online. So let’s do video.

Christian Klepp  32:52

Right.

Rai Cornell  32:53

And yes, they’re right. It is extremely powerful online, and I highly recommend any business does video. But the problem is, when you start with video, you get overwhelmed. There is so much work that goes into producing videos, coming up with the script, doing the actual recording, figuring out, are we going to make this a 30 minute long video, or are we going to focus on doing a 90 second video that can be used as a reel or a clip or a short? Those are way too many questions to ask. So why not start long start with the thing that’s the easiest for people to get out, which normally is written content or dictated content. So hey, let me just talk into my text to what is it called, talk to text feature on my phone. Or let me record this audio clip and send it to my assistant and have it transcribed. Or, you know, whatever the case may be, that is usually the easiest way to get started. And then you can create all of the derivatives from there. And it reduces that investment barrier. It reduces that energy commitment barrier, and it reduces the overwhelm by just simplifying it so it’s all about the order of operations and making sure that you’re working smart, as opposed to just trying to jump your way up to the top of Mount. Everest. Right off the bat.

Christian Klepp  34:17

I completely agree with you, and I’m grinning because I’ve been in situations like that, with clients in the past where, you know, they got they they went really deep down this rabbit hole of how, how we should produce this video, and what type of video, and it got into the stage where there was so much analysis paralysis that it was almost like, Okay, why don’t we just call Steven Spielberg or Jerry Bruckheimer, right? I mean, let’s just Hollywood stock production, right? 

Rai Cornell  34:43

Yeah, yeah. 

Christian Klepp  34:44

Which they don’t need. And you and I both know that, right? Like, it does not have to be overly produced. 

Rai Cornell  34:50

Agree.

Christian Klepp  34:51

That said. And I’m gonna throw in this caveat there for people that are gonna take my, take my word, you know, at face value, and say, I’ll just take out. My iPhone and film something that’s not what I that’s not what I mean either, right?

Rai Cornell  35:04

Correct, and it has to come down to quality. That’s another you know, at the beginning we started talking about that. In order to heal your relationship as a brand with the people who you want to buy, you have to show them respect. And I think we’ve all kind of been in those situations where you see something that a company or, you know, personal brand has thrown together, and you go, Oh, you’re you’re really winging it here. You’re really not trying. This is and you lose respect for that person, and you want to make sure that you’re putting your best foot forward. You are putting out the highest quality content that you can, however, and this is the caveat that we all kind of find ourselves in throughout life, not just in business or in marketing, but perfectionism is the depth of creativity, and you have to accept that while you strive for high quality standards and you want to put out the best quality content that you can done is always better than perfect.

Christian Klepp  36:08

I used to work with this creative director that absolutely hated that phrase, um, but he was, again, to your point. He was one of these people that got caught in this trap of perfectionism and then the work always got delayed, right? So going back to your original point, absolutely, absolutely.

Rai Cornell  36:28

Within my team, we call it full life content. And what we mean by that term is we all start out in life clumsy and, you know, falling down and rough around the edges and awkward, and we get to this gangly stage, and eventually we evolve into figuring out who we are, and we have richness, and we have depth to us, and then we have something to offer the world, that is the lifespan of humans, and that is the lifespan of content and ideas we need to start, just to start, because that’s at least going to teach us something that’s going to get us traction in the world, and then as that content lives and we learn, we know exactly how to improve it, and we can make improvements over time that gradually enrich that content and make it more and more and more valuable to our audience. But we can’t just jump to the ripe old age of an 80 year old perfect, self aware human. Neither can we do that with our content and our marketing.

Christian Klepp  37:29

Absolutely, absolutely. We get to the point in the conversation, we’re talking about actionable tips, and you’ve given us plenty already, so I’m gonna narrow it down to three important things, all right, so just on this topic, right of leveraging psychology driven marketing for better results, what are three things that you think B2B marketers can do right now?

Rai Cornell  37:52

Yep, so you know, it’s funny. I was actually just talking to a colleague this morning about how there’s this tendency in B2B marketing for companies to over segment and over analyze and over personalize. And ultimately, what that ends up doing is it costs you more time and energy and resources to speak to fewer people. And so I think for a lot of companies that feel like they need to make a big change and they don’t know where to start, which that is one of the biggest analysis paralysis issues that we see in the marketing world, is pick your largest group and focus on that first you will always find spin offs and subsets and subcultures eventually down the line. But even if that largest group is something as simple as you know, the example my colleague gave earlier was Johnson & Johnson speaking to women, just women, grandmothers, aunts, sisters, mothers, just speaking to women. If you start there and you start creating content that are going to help women make this decision to come closer to you and choose you as their brand they’re loyal to, you’re going to learn so much, and you’re going to create so much that’s valuable to you, not just in the short term, but in the long term. So actionable tip number one is, choose your largest segment, whether that’s 40% of your audience, 80% of your audience, choose that focus there, start there. 

Rai Cornell  39:32

The next thing is, if you think about your marketing methods and mechanisms, particularly your methods, meaning, how am I reaching people? Always, always, always do this litmus test of, how would I feel if I was on the receiving end of this marketing, if you do not feel respected, if you feel duped or pressured or deceived, do not do. Yeah, it’s, it seems like such a simple thing, but it’s this golden rule of treat others how you would want to be treated. And I can’t emphasize enough how important that is in marketing. 

Rai Cornell  40:12

And then the third actionable step, I would say, is go back to the numbers. So many companies think they need to double down on the bottom of the funnel, when they’re not even getting anybody into the top and middle of their funnel. So go back to the numbers and let those point you in the direction of your absolute top priority. And do exactly that. Focus on the top priority, the top of the sales funnel, the part of the sales funnel that the numbers are showing you are in need of help more than what is below it and what is blowing. What is blowing?

Christian Klepp  40:47

Well, I love it. I love it. Let me just quickly recap for the benefit of the audience, right? So choose your largest segment and focus on that was the first step, or the first tip, the second one was, I would say, for lack of a better description, empathize with the target audience and put yourself in their shoes. And if you see this content, or you see this marketing, how does it make you feel? Do you feel like you’re being manipulated? Do you feel like you’re being pressured? Do you feel like you’re being pushed to make a decision right now, right? And number three is going back to the numbers right and focusing on those excellent, excellent Rai I’m going to ask you to stay on your soapbox a little bit longer, if that’s okay with you. But the question is, what is the status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why? And my sense is that you have a lot of things that you disagree with, but just pick one.

Rai Cornell  41:46

I do. There’s a lot, you know, even though I am a marketing professional, there’s a lot that I don’t like about the marketing and advertising industries. But think the one that I think really encapsulates everything that we’ve talked about today is that a lot of people, especially decision makers, in their attempts to be very logical and be very rational, which that’s all about the ego, right? We all want to feel like, oh yes, I’m very level headed and pragmatic, and I just follow the numbers and I just do, you know what the most logical decision is they lose sight of what’s actually going to be required for their long term success. And if you focus purely on revenue, you’re going to have some short term success at the cost of alienating a huge population that could set you up for a slow, steady, stable growth over time. Instead of prioritizing revenue at all costs, prioritize humans. Prioritize relationships. If you focus on those things, those two things, relationships and the humans you’re in relationship with the revenue will come. Whereas, if you focus on the revenue only, the humans will not come.

Christian Klepp  43:09

The humans will not come, but the robots will no. Sorry,

Rai Cornell  43:15

And is that what we want? I don’t know. Every sci-fi movie tells us no.

Christian Klepp  43:19

Absolutely not, absolutely not, no. But I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. And I know there are many out there that are very well, let’s just say they subscribe to a different school of thought. And that’s putting it politely, right? They’re more of the transactional kind that believes that it’s speed, it’s speed to revenue, right? And I get that right? I get that you don’t like I said before, you don’t have 12 months to produce results, but not at the expense, and I think that was your point, not at the expense of destroying potential relationships and tarnishing your brand and your company’s reputation.

Rai Cornell  43:59

Right, and there’s a whole, I’m sure we could do a whole other episode on short term ROI solutions that don’t destroy relationships and that don’t destroy your brand’s reputation long term. There’s so much we could go into there. It’s, I’m not saying it’s one or the other. I’m saying you have to use the goal of forming relationships and having those healthy bonds with the humans who are going to determine the success or failure of your company. You have to use that as your guide. Post. That is your North Star.

Christian Klepp  44:30

Absolutely, absolutely okay. Two more questions, and I’m going to let you go right to the bonus question, if you had the opportunity to travel anywhere in the world. Where would it be and why?

Rai Cornell  44:46

Is this a purely personal question? 

Christian Klepp  44:49

Yes. 

Rai Cornell  44:50

Okay, Thailand. I have been dreaming for years, potentially decades, of going to Thailand and interacting with the elephants there. I. Saw this video one time of somebody wrestling with a baby elephant, and this, this baby was like 300 pounds, and so this person.

Christian Klepp  45:06

Wow.

Rai Cornell  45:07

You know, struggling, but it’s just, there’s something so magical about elephants and just Thailand is such a magical place to me. I That’s absolutely my number one choice. If you were to give me a plane ticket, yeah, I’d be on my way. 

Christian Klepp  45:24

Yeah. No, no, it is an amazing place, and I’ve been there before. I was there for about two weeks, yeah, spent a couple of days in Bangkok. And Bangkok is an eclectic mix of being a beautiful and wild place all at the same time, right? 

Rai Cornell  45:41

Yeah. 

Christian Klepp  45:42

But, um, but, but you’re absolutely right. It’s a wonderful country, and the people are very warm, and they are really, really, very welcoming, and they smile a lot, and they’re happy. And there’s just something about that, that aura, right, that vibe, right, that you get from them, that that, I suppose, appealing to people from the west who are always, you know, at times, overly worked.

Rai Cornell  46:10

Yes, yes. It’s very, it’s very attractive seeing the culture, commune with nature, the way that they do in Thailand.

Christian Klepp  46:18

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Rai, this has been a great conversation, and thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners I might take, I might take you up on that idea, though, for another podcast episode. So for those of you listening, stay tuned, but please quick intro to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you.

Rai Cornell  46:41

Absolutely. So as you said, I’m Rai Cornell. I’m the owner of Cornell Content Marketing, and you can find me on LinkedIn. My first name is spelled a little weird. It’s Rai Cornell, like the university. And if you are looking to get started with any kind of psychology driven marketing, I want to make as many tools as I possibly can, available to anybody who wants to do this, even if you don’t ever work with me. Just please take these tools and run with it in house. And we do have a great starter kit, which is called the demand generation brainstorming kit, which you can get at www.cornellcontentmarketing.com/demandgenkit.

Christian Klepp  47:17

Fantastic, fantastic. All right, once again. Rai, thank you so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.

Rai Cornell  47:24

Thank you so much, Christian. 

Christian Klepp  47:25

All right. Bye for now.