SPEAKERS

Christian Klepp, Eddie Saunders Jr.

Christian Klepp  00:03

Welcome to B2B Marketers on a Mission, a podcast for changemakers where we question the conventional, debunk marketing myths, provide actionable tips, think differently, disrupt industries, and take your marketing to a new level, from improving your campaigns to making you a better marketer. These are the inspirational stories that will help us change the way we think and approach B2B marketing, one conversation at a time. This podcast is brought to you by EINBLICK Consulting, helping you to stand out in the market and drive revenue to your B2B business. And now your host, Christian Klepp.

All right, folks, welcome everyone to this episode of B2B Marketers on a Mission. This is the show where we help you to question the conventional, think differently, disrupt your industry, and take your marketing to new heights. This is your host Christian Klepp. And today I am joined by some on a mission, get ready for it, to implement demand generation campaigns that move mountains. Boy, does that sound like a song. Coming to us from Dayton, Ohio, Mr. Eddie Saunders Jr. Welcome to the show, sir.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  01:13

Hey, it’s a great day to have a great day it as well with my soul, and we get to talk one of my favorite things, demand gen…

Christian Klepp  01:21

Absolutely, absolutely, Eddie. So let’s just jump right in, because this is going to be a great conversation. Understatement here, but you’re an expert when it comes to industrial demand generation. But for this conversation, let’s focus on a topic that I believe has become part of your professional mission. And that’s how to craft better demand gen campaigns that deliver measurable results. So I’m gonna kick this off with a two barreled question, right. Number one, is defined demand generation, because that gets thrown around a lot. And number two, why do you think it’s important for B2B?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  02:02

Yeah, for sure. So there are a lot of ways and a lot of definitions, you know, around like, what is demand gen and all that. It sounds like a new buzzword like gluten free marketing, yada, yada. But to me, there’s, again, lots of ways you can break it down. But in essence, my interpretation, my layman’s terms, is really making as much noise or being you know, subjective or allowing the viewer if you will, to be subjected to your brand as much as possible throughout the entire decision making process, not at just specific points. Therefore, via that compounding branding principle, and that continued exposure in a variety of forms, you can better position yourself to be one of the top choices and options when they do get to that key point where most people try to put the bulk of their marketing, you can have that entire conversation throughout the way. So making as much noise as possible to better increase your chances of getting to that purchasing decision table, specifically, because anywhere from 66% to…, what is the 80% of technical buyers are now using online options to make those decisions. So again, a little bit longer definition there. But it just further says that there’s way more opportunity throughout the entire pipeline, and not just the small pocket towards the end. So that’s my general definition of that specifically.

And like why does it is important for B2B in general? Well, I mean, in industrial, a lot of these tactics are typically three to five years behind. And so it’s really easy to kind of pick apart some of these things that are working in other areas. And it’s super important because buyers are still making huge decisions, and specifically in industrial, they’re making large capital expenditure decisions. And so when you’re trying to put yourself in the perspective of those buyers, having a solid demand gen strategy, regardless of your B2C, or B2B Because everything is H2H, so it’s human to human.

Christian Klepp  03:57

Absolutely. Man. Absolutely. Thanks for that. I had two follow up questions for you, Eddie. One of them is like, I’m going to play a little bit of a devil’s advocate here, when you say make as much noise as possible. I hope you mean it’s noise that doesn’t signify that it’s an interruption to somebody else. It’s actually like, useful noise. It’s noise that the target audience will find useful, or how do you define noise?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  04:22

Sure. So when it comes to just noise, as more can be synthesized into content, and for lack of a better letter example, I like to use my E’s of content. I like it to be engaging, entertaining, educating, and if you can package it all exciting. So that’s the noise that I’m talking about. Now, there are many layers to that specific conversation. But if we go one step deeper from noise, that’s just relevant content and how do we do that, we route that and all of those E’s that I just defined and try to hit as many of those buckets or hit some of those buckets separately, all contingent upon your audience and how they best receive that message that you are sending.

Christian Klepp  05:02

That’s a fair point. That’s a fair point. Okay, fantastic. So second follow up question. So you were saying that the industrial space is about three to five years behind other B2B segments. So can you? Can you give us some examples like in terms of like, industrial versus other segments. Would other segments have a faster decision making process? Or how does it work?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  05:26

I mean, there’s a clear changing of the guard in a lot of industries, and manufacturing is no exception to that specific role. And I can confirm that a lot of what was being done previously was based off of trade shows, and building these personal relationships, and honestly, kind of having a literal and somewhat figurative Rolodex, if you will. But as we’re seeing the way that individuals do research and make large purchasing decisions, like all that is changing with all the tools that are continued to be given to us. We have to defy, we have to pivot from those ways of thinking, I think manufacturing is so guilty of, well, this is the way that we’ve always done it. So it’s my mission now to go in there and say, yes, that may be correct. But that is the only thing that is correct, is that’s the way that you’ve always done it. And I think as we can all agree, that is one of the most crippling phrases in any industry whatsoever.

Christian Klepp  06:18

100%. 100%. I mean, you know, going back to your point, these very traditional, if I can call them that traditional B2B segments that were very slow to adapt, and even with a pandemic, and even with this rapid digitalization that we’ve seen across most B2B industry segments, there were others that still continue to resist that. I’m going to call it that tsunami of change, right?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  06:42

Yes, tsunami of change, for sure. You know, and, and I had no coach would tell me, you know, it’s all great, you know, everyone can be happy and respond well, when it’s 70 and sunny. But when the winds of change in the precipitation of adversity fall upon you, how do you respond?

Christian Klepp  06:58

Wow, look at you. Fantastic. Okay, so, moving on to the next question, which we had a little discussion about this before I hit record, but there’s discussion on platforms like LinkedIn, by certain groups of people that say that demand gen is dead. So I pretty much know how you feel about it. But I want to hear you say it. So your thoughts? Number one, and number two, what, if any, what demand gen techniques do you think are obsolete?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  07:33

Right, well, first off that phrase, those are fighting words. So knowing that, but I say that, in jest, demand gen, by all means, depending on your interpretation of it, I would say that that’s typically led by a misunderstanding. Because if you’re not, in essence, as a marketer, trying to capture, convert and create demand, if you’re not trying to do them, then what are you actually doing? And let me guess the answer is probably I’m just doing things that we’ve always done the way we’ve always done it. And there’s, that’s the end of our conversation there. So in all reality, I can tell you that even specifically in a space, like the industrial world, it is well and it is alive. And even if we may be a couple of years behind, when it comes to implementation and execution on a lot of realms, I specifically am making it my mission to speed that up. And I think with all the alarms and sounds that I’ve been making over the past five or so years, it’s made a huge difference in you’re seeing the world of industrial marketing being taken way seriously. And demand gen, I think is a huge component of that, call it a buzzword, call it what you will, but that doesn’t change that some of the strategies and tactics that are that demand gen is really seemed by and rooted in. That doesn’t make them any less applicable, because they are just as applicable. And even so they’re even more than a lot of these traditional methods that I’m sure we will get into here soon.

Christian Klepp  08:53

Absolutely, absolutely. I love that you use the word realms, right? I mean, you know, there’s a little bit of a hint there like Lord of the Rings.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  09:02

A tad.

Christian Klepp  09:04

Alright. And just going back to that second question, I’m like, are there any dimension techniques that you think are no longer relevant, or you think that they’re just obsolete entirely?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  09:16

Sure. So I get a lot of, you know, kickback and thoughts and questions around the trade show conversation, because a lot of individuals feel like, what’s the value there? And I don’t think that it’s the vehicle as much as the problem like as in trade shows, but it’s the drivers. And those are the exhibitors that are going to trade shows because the platform itself still is valid, it still has all of that value there. And I know people who are crushing trade shows, but those who are questioning the value, I would question your execution and your ability to actually strategize about what you’re going to do before, during and after, that’s different than just scanning as many badges as possible and then blasting everybody’s email inboxes when they didn’t even ask you to do that in the first place. That’s a realistic strategy that a lot of people are still implementing to this day, and even much larger companies that would just baffle you, like, you’re still doing that? And so I’m trying to really sound the alarm on that as well, that it’s not the trade shows are bad. It’s how the individuals are executing upon them, and quite literally wasting dollars, because I’ve seen it firsthand. And that what can be a very valuable realm.

Christian Klepp  10:27

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, you know, that was such a great point that you brought up, because it’s, I tend to agree, it’s not necessarily the trade show, but it’s the manner of execution. And to your point, that’s the way that they follow up. I mean, I went to a trade show last year, and it blew my mind that they’re still trying to cold call everybody after the show. And I’m like, Guys, we have to evolve from this kind of like methodology, or move away from it.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  10:59

True story. Yeah, true story, man, for sure. Um, at my old company, I actually had to, you know, push a lot of people away from calling those scanned leads, because we would put them into our CRM as leads, I said, those aren’t leads. Those are people whose badge you scan that may or may not have asked for more information. I hate even putting that in the category of leads, but don’t allow me to digress in that conversation, because that’s a hill that I’ll die on.

Christian Klepp  11:26

I don’t doubt it. I’m gonna move us on to the next question. And you will have no problem answering it. Talk to us about some other mistakes that you’ve seen B2B marketers make when it comes to demand gen, and how they should address those, like maybe the top three to five things that you’ve seen.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  11:42

Seeing a lot of individuals rely strictly on like white papers and blogs, it’s kind of a big mistake. There’s not as much marketing mix that I’m really seeing. And I think that’s because there are some marketers that have been in some positions for either entirely too long and haven’t refreshed their knowledge, or newer marketers are coming in trying to implement things, but the C suite, the executives, and the people who are making the decisions, don’t understand it. So they’re suppressing a lot of people. Which leads me to my next point, a big mistake is not being open minded to new strategies and tactics that this next generation of marketers like myself, are bringing to the table. And a lot of us, like myself are bringing raw data. So and it’s silly, but a wise person once told me, you know, God, we trust everybody else brings data, and in the manufacturing industry is no exception to that rule. So that’s another big mistake that I’m seeing. And then additionally, individuals not investing more and putting more time and effort into content creation, or aka just digital avenues and efforts. It’s a huge miss by so many manufacturers, and with that staggering amount of 66-80% of that buying process being done online prior to anyone contacting sales. It’s just if you’re not experiencing or putting yourself in a position to maximise on that compounding branding, that continued exposure and creating high end to end racers, you’re going to miss out on the people that get it because there are definitely people that get it because I’m working with them. And then there are people that don’t get it that are just doing the things the way they’ve always done it.

Christian Klepp  13:18

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s people that don’t get it and you you’re probably working with them, too, or you stop working with them. At one follow up question for you, Eddie, you brought up a really important point. And I think it’s not just relevant to demand gen. It’s really, across the board in B2B marketing. How do you get buy in from industrial customers who are so risk averse and are not open to these, as you said, new ideas? How do you get buy in from them?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  13:49

Sure, I mean, having previous experience and experimenting in a lot of these options and be able to come to them with Hey, I understand why you feel this way, I felt this way at one time as well. But I did this, and this is what I had seen from it. And I’ll go back to a point that I just made you and God we trust everybody else bring data. I’ve very much rooted myself and a lot of the decisions that I made for myself and for my clients with that. And so though there are some gut intuitions and feelings, because you know, you have 14 years of experience, you want to use that to your advantage. But there’s also all of this data at our fingertips. And so if you have that, and you can tie your strategies, break them down into tactics, and then explain how those tactics building into strategies are going to have a direct business impact. That’s the biggest thing that you can do for yourself, because I’ve had to pitch a lot of really broad crazy ideas that I have gotten approved that I never thought I would have gotten approved by simply 1) believing in it, reverse engineering with intention on how I do it, and then also driving how it’s going to have direct business impact. If we really want to reverse engineer with intention and think of what are these decision makers really care about? They care about the bottom line: How can they make more? How can they spend less than if it’s a large publicly traded company? What’s their stock value? If they’re not a publicly traded company, cool, you’ve only got two things that you really have to focus on, the two buttons that you got to push. And that’s direct information with me serving and interacting with a variety of the C suites and enticing them to be able to invest in resources and just buy in of some of these crazy ideas that I’ve had that have ended up really working very well.

Christian Klepp  15:29

Fantastic. And, you know, no offense, so you don’t mind me put you on the spot here. But can you give us an example of… you don’t have to name the company, but one of these crazy ideas that you got approved? Can you share that with the audience?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  15:41

Yeah, for sure. So, uh, starting a podcast, you know, and anybody can do research and look at, you know, my profile and see what I did in the past and no big deal whatsoever. But to keep it semi agnostic, you know, starting a podcast for a large machine manufacturer only specific brands were doing that, that were like personal brands, but I humanized our brand significantly. Kept it very, you know, almost brand agnostic, if you will, because it was still very flex. But there was no major partnerships, or, you know, we weren’t out there, pimpin ads or anything along those lines. And we weren’t even pimping out our product, we were actually just speaking with industry thought leaders on a variety of topics, from robotics, to reshoring, to government affairs, to all types of stuff, it was pretty interesting. And then through that, we were able to leverage that, over time, to be able to open up new relationships for other business avenues. And heck, we even got our entire employee like merch swag store built out for us through leveraging a partnership of that podcast. And that’s just one example.

Christian Klepp  16:41

Fantasic, fantastic. And this is gonna sound super biased coming from me. But yes, absolutely. Podcasts are awesome… (laugh)

Eddie Saunders Jr.  16:49

For sure, for sure. Can’t fight that. And there’s plenty of data as well that technical buyers are also very much heavily heavily into these audio forms of content. So it’s just… there’s again, data behind it. It’s not just feel good, you know, little bit of experience behind it, and obviously fun, but it being fun and cool doesn’t make it ineffective.

Christian Klepp  17:09

No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. All right. I’m gonna move us on to the next question. And this one, we probably have to unpack quite a bit. But B2B marketers shouldn’t start planning a demand gen campaign without doing an audit first. So talk to us about some of the best practices when it comes to doing a campaign audit the right way.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  17:31

Sure, you genuinely need to reverse engineer with intention. I have said this a couple times and sprinkled it in the conversation. And it’s not cliche, and it’s not by accident by any means. But reverse engineering. So many people just think, okay, they start with what marketing tactics do I know, that’s not a strategy. That’s just saying what tactics do okay, we want to do some Facebook, okay, well, we’re gonna do a blog, okay, we want to, we want to put stuff on our website, okay, you’re describing like, you know, tactical things you want it, that’s not a strategy. That’s throwing stuff against the wall and hoping something sticks, right and taking entirely too much time. So my recommendation is, we begin with the end in mind. Okay, so what are we trying to accomplish? Nine times out of 10, people are gonna say, Oh, we want more Leads. Okay, that’s cute. So does everybody else right? And but again, but it starts the conversation. So okay, because there are various strategies, and then tactics within the strategies that help you get from point A to point B. But if you don’t have point B defined, you’re shooting at a target with your eyes closed, and you’re taking a shot in the dark for lack of a better term. And so when people come to me specifically, now that I’ve had all this experience from startup all the way to, you know, corporate conglomerates, I get to say, No, I’m not putting you in a box, like we’re gonna build the box around you. Because if you take you and your five best competitors, you’re all going to have completely different conversations with me, because you’re gonna have completely different goals, completely different scenarios. So but if you can define where that end point is, people like myself can help you draw the map, and you can help draw the map a lot easier. Instead of just taking a blank piece of paper and drawing lines all over and hoping you get to a destination.

Christian Klepp  19:09

That’s absolutely right. I mean, like you know, there’s so many analogies out there. The one that I like to use is the real estate one, because a lot of people just almost get that one immediately. It’s like building a house. Right? And you build a house, you’ve got those construction materials, you’ve got the contractor. It’s all ready to go. But you don’t have the architectural blueprint. So everyone’s standing there, like okay, well, what’s the house gonna look like when it’s done? Right? Yeah, so, same story, different characters, but like, yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  19:42

Right.

Christian Klepp  19:43

Eddie, we are getting to the point in the conversation, because this show is very much also about actionable tips. Right. So I’m gonna throw in this caveat here, and I’m sure you’ll appreciate it. At least to my knowledge, demand gen campaigns can’t be done in a day, in an hour, right, but I think it would be important to say that, you know, that said, that doesn’t mean that you can’t take action right now. So, alright, I’ve set that up quite a bit now. So here’s the question. So if somebody is listening to this conversation that you and I are having, and they’re like, You know what, we’re actually thinking about putting together a demand gen campaign. But we don’t have six months to put this together, we’ve got to like, we’ve got to move with like right now. So what are like three to five things that they can do after they listen to this conversation?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  20:35

First thing you need to do is you need to get a hold of your customers, you need to get in touch with the people that said yes, and find out why they said yes, because there are so many times where we think we do the me, we, us speech, where, you know, it’s all our vernacular, this is what we think are the features and benefits, but go figure out why people said yes, and I can promise you that you’ll be baffled, and some of the information that they will share with you. And the reason I say that is because of a reverse engineering with intention, we need to know how we’re going to create more yeses. So why would we not – If we want to create more yeses, go to those which have already said yes, and find out why. Find out what problems we’re solving. And for the first, at least three weeks of this essential campaign, I would be first routing that because it’s going to save us a lot of time from having to continue to guess and guess and guess and guess. And then from that information and findings, you’ll find out what’s really valuable, what’s really attractive, what’s really scalable for your product. And then you develop messaging all around that. You find out what those real features and benefits are. And then so from that, what do we build from that, we’re now looking at the keywords we can define our specific audience that we need to look into. And then if we’re talking about like platforms and executional tactics, we can just start creating content yesterday. And if we have budget for it, looking into some search engine marketing, more so via Google ads, because the dollar for dollar spend is there right now. There’s a data tied to it, you can track 10 different KPIs and metrics at any given time, it ties in directly to your website via Google Analytics, at all low to no cost. And then through that, again, creating some scalable content, not just you know, blogs and white papers, turn that written form into voiceover, if you get talking head videos, those are the most scalable pieces of content on planet Earth, because that video of somebody speaking can turn into audio form, you can keep the video into shorter forms. And you know, I’m telling you to stack content, and bank and bank and bank and bank all with intention. And that’s all just with a smaller frame. So, hit a couple of points there. But that’s your Quick Fire, hey, here’s what we’re doing. You know, the first six months of this, that would be the beginning, how we set it up, and how we really create a ramp for ourselves.

Christian Klepp  22:42

Fantastic advice. And I appreciate that you were able to like give that big rundown on like just a matter of like one or two minutes. I mean, I’m sure the audience will appreciate that. And I think you know, the other thing that you did just a while ago, Eddie, inadvertently came up with the with the title of this episode, reverse engineering with intention. I love it.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  23:06

That warms my heart because it’s like my mantra and I feel like I say it in decent amount. But it’s just sometimes you hear things in life, and they just slap you in the soul. And you’re like, wow, that’s sticking with me. So that is like, that is a bumper sticker on my soul train for lack of a better term. Like that phrase for sure it for me, so awesome man.

Christian Klepp  23:23

That was great. That was great. And I appreciate how you were able to summarize all these actionable items in such a short, short timeframe. Okay. Love it or hate it, man, metrics. So what are some key metrics, and I know we can go down a very deep rabbit hole here, but like this some top key metrics that B2B marketers should be looking at when it comes to demand gen.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  23:49

Sure, I mean, so a lot of people like to get caught up in impressions, and like to get caught up in click through rate of ads and things along those lines, but, but I’m a big attribution guy. And I’m also huge on running multiple campaigns side by side, specifically when it comes to search engine marketing. And so I like to flip some ideas on their head and knowing that a lot of people also focus on just leads produced. What about pipeline, people don’t focus enough on pipeline creation, right. And so with the attribution that we have set in place, and my obviously recommendation that is so data driven, and tied, as soon as somebody makes an interaction on your website, you can see a lot of your popular activity. And so knowing if you have a CRM that is connected to a lot of these activities, as it should be in 2024 and beyond, but pipeline, like pipeline velocity and pipeline creation, because that’s the end all be all. That’s the person who thinks about leads that gets smarter and wiser. Thinks Okay, what about pipeline, because it’s not as flattering as a number sometimes as those leads, but leads comes as a simple, synthesizing of, okay, how much web traffic did we get and the thing how much web traffic do we need to get to get this many clicks to get this many leads, so you can synthesize and break it down, then you’re going to chip away at that big block of marble. But if we’re trying to really create conversions now we can get convert that demand specifically, I want to know what’s going on the pipeline, and then that pipeline velocity straight up.

Christian Klepp  25:18

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. My friend, I, I kind of get this feeling that you’ve been on your soapbox all this time, but please stay up there for a while longer, at least for this next question. Right? So what is the status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with? And why? And I like to ask you to just choose one, One Ring to rule them all.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  25:43

Oh….So one thing that just needs to stop, and I’m going to go back to the trade shows, but I need to be very, very direct. It is not the vehicle. It is the execution, it’s the driver. I think people need to stop expecting that they can continue to treat trade shows the same way. Because the buyers have changed. So why are we not adjusting with that specifically, and then even deeper within trade shows. So we’re keeping it within one lane is that follow up strategy… Like what are we doing to let people know we’re there? What is our engagement while we are there? And then how are we actually engaging with people and trying to convert after the fact, like people just really need to change their mindset. Some people are, and it’s a beautiful thing. And that’s why you’re seeing people just crush it at trade shows and do things that like man’s you see that, oh, you got to go to this booth. And creating demand, like you have to be there, you have to experience this. And then there are others who are just putting up a fold table, putting a plain black cloth, thrown some parts on the table, maybe they got a stand up banner, and they got two guys, two older guys who are sitting around their phones and laptops for a stinking week, and you’re paying them per diem and all that stuff, and you’re wasting so much money and their time.

Christian Klepp  26:59

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, and I think this was your point, you almost have to treat it like its own ecosystem, right? Pre-show, during show, post-show, right? What was the experience of the visitor gonna be like, each step of the way. And I’m not talking about spamming the living crap out of it. I’m talking about like, how do you… How do you, I think that was your point, how do you actively engage with them before they even show up? While they’re there? After they’ve gone? What happens on the next trade show, etc, etc.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  27:32

People just treat trade shows like, like instead of a component of the overall strategy that it is the strategy and it’s just, they put a lot into it because that’s that’s all a lot of people know. And it’s a silly process and, like the vehicle, don’t like the way people drive the vehicle.

Christian Klepp  27:52

Yep, yeah. No, I hear you. I hear you. Okay, my friend, here comes the bonus question. What is the name of Frodo’s sword?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  28:06

Sting.

Christian Klepp  28:08

Boom, there we go. And what’s so special about that sword? What did it do?

Eddie Saunders Jr.  28:17

It turns blue when Orkestra Nair and he got it from it Bilbo.

Christian Klepp  28:22

Bam. Well done. Fantastic, Eddie, man, we could stay on for another hour, you know, talking about demand gen, and Lord of the Rings, you know, concurrently. But you know, in the interest of time, I just want to thank you for coming on the show for sharing your expertise and experience with the audience. And I hope they get a lot of value out of this conversation. So please, tell us a little bit about yourself and how folks can get in touch with you.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  28:49

Yeah, so I’m a proud solopreneur and that fractional marketing advisor along with my specific journey, so make sure you check me out EddieSaundersjr.com. So feel free to check on my website. Or you can just hit me up on LinkedIn, Eddie Saunders Jr. I’m ever present, always posting, and you can always find me in the comment section.

Christian Klepp  29:10

Fantastic. Once again, Eddie, thank you so much for coming on the show. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.

Eddie Saunders Jr.  29:16

Thank you.

Christian Klepp  29:18

Bye for now.